Standard Race Settings

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Dabomstew
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Standard Race Settings

Post by Dabomstew » Sun May 04, 2014 11:35 pm

Discuss anything to do with the "standardized" randomizer race settings here.

The preset included with version 1.6.0 brought a lot of changes that were intended to try and "balance" the high-tier Pokemon in races somewhat (to tone down the "find a starter/Alakazam/Gengar and win" mentality that existed beforehand) and some of them may have been confusing or not entirely useful, so I'd like to hear feedback on that especially.

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Re: Standard Race Settings

Post by luckytyphlosion » Mon May 05, 2014 3:33 am

While off-topic, another thing I wanted was is you could make a setting where you can't pick up a Fresh Water/Soda Pop/Lemonade until after Celadon. (Mostly for those Red NSC Randomized Races Kappa)

Setting "Nerf X accuracy" is not cool. Literally no reason for it, unless you really hate how broken sleep moves are Kappa. Same with "Update Type Effectiveness". No reason either.

I didn't see a "No [This Pokemon] Option", unless it's hidden in the ROM.

One thing though is maybe we could create a "randomizer race tier" list, to group what exp. curve each Pokémon should have.
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Re: Standard Race Settings

Post by Shenanagans » Mon May 05, 2014 4:04 am

Ok So this might be sort of long but I'm just gonna type some general stuff here to get some discussion going.

Im going to break this up by Pokemon and Items

Pokemon

Currently Gen 1 random races is basically Get Alakazam% Some pokemon such as Alakazam, Gengar, Blastoise, ect are so overpowered that you can win a race with them almost regardless of the competition.

I feel like gen 2 onward is pretty fine, but might benefit from some of these changes

To limit this I suggest we put more Pokemon on an even playing field. Alakazam is overpowered for 4 things:

Typing
Stats
Moves (as in he learns a lot of moves and learns them fairly early)
Experience Curve

Looking at this we shouldn't mess with Type or Stats, but I feel like we can mess with Moves and Experience without causing much of a problem.

Experience is easy, we can simply put all Pokemon on the same curve. This way slow curve Pokemon like Gyarados or Tauros could be viable to use. We could choose to make randomizers easier (all pokes in Medium-slow/Medium-Fast curve) or harder (all Pokemon in Slow curve). The real reason for this would be to make all Pokemon have the opportunity to be good.

Moves can also undergo a change, and it is much more dynamic then Experience curve changes. I would propose all Pokemon start with 3 or 4 moves. This would allow some Pokemon that start with only 1 move to have a shot at winning a race. Tauros again is a good example here. He only gets 1 move until he is around level 20, which means your chances of being walled are extremely high. With 4 moves he would have a chance to get a move-set that can last until the Mt. Moon TM's, and his level up moves.

We could also do something about when Pokemon learn moves. Some Pokemon don't learn until very high levels, while others learn very early. We could remedy this by making all Pokemon learn moves every X levels.

TLDR:

I feel like giving all Pokemon 3 moves at start (or 4 if they normally start with 4) and making a set exp curve for all Pokemon will be a good thing to test.


Items

As far as randomized items go I feel like Gen 1 is very good with randomized items (the possibility of drink sequence breaking is amazing). I don't really think there is much to fix. My only real issue is lack of PP (Basically only really matters in the E4) but this could be fixed simply by putting an ether in the PC (Replace the potion maybe?). Otherwise Gen 1 random Items is fine.

Gen 2 on the items are kinda bad when randomized... This is nearly entirely due to the fact that there are more items in those gens. These games have Mail, Berries, weird useless hold items (like stick, Lucky punch, ect) that make random items pretty bad. However if we were to limit these bad items random items could be really good. I think removing mail/berries (or apricorns in g2) would be perfect for this. Honestly though I don't feel like random items is that great in gen 2 on.

TLDR: Gen 1 random items = good.

Gen 2 Random items = currently horrible, if fixed possibly Ok
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Re: Standard Race Settings

Post by luckytyphlosion » Mon May 05, 2014 10:54 am

Maybe Creating a "Banlist" for Random Items in Gen 2+

Such as: No Mail, Specific Pokemon Items, items not normally acquired through normal gameplay (ex. park ball), Useless Items (ex. Gold Leaf), Apricorns, Berserk Gene, Focus Band, boxes and the bows.

How 'bout making Alakazam and Gengar have slow Exp Curve Kappa?
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Re: Standard Race Settings

Post by Javi137 » Mon May 05, 2014 11:57 pm

Ok so, what Shena said is pretty much our thoughts.

The experience curve fix (every pokemon with medium slow / medium fast) has been fully tested, aswell as the 4 moves starting thing. We have done a LOT of races with that fix, and we love it. As Shena said, it makes a lot of pokemon viable, not only Gengar or Alakazam as before.

The problem of the actual preset on randomizer_race is:
- Crit fix. That means crit is no longer based on speed, so the crit formula is actually the same as gen 2 and above. That kind of sucks. It's been tested aswell, and what it does, is removing ALL the troll on the game, making it way easier. That easy that is a little bit boring. We can be agree that is not a good fix.

- Minimal catch rate: That means you can catch every pokemon easily. I personally don't like it, becuse a main reason: Mewtwo. Mewtwo is a monster, with really high stats, and 4 moves. But it has a problem. Its nearly impossible to catch. If you want to go for a mewtwo, you have to deal with the low catchrate, as a "punish". Its like, oh, i see a mewtwo, first ball cause minimal catch rate, not even close i loose this race.

- Type changing: It's like... why? This is gen 1, we all know how gen 1 is made, i dont see any point of changing all of that... I don't like changing gen 1 mechanincs. Even tho its... logic, but thats how gen 1 is, and we are playing gen 1.

Also, the first two changes are invisible. If you don't know them, you either won't realized or will do it late. Like now, if we are playing normally, we see a Mewtwo, and its like, fuck it, not even a chance to catch it. But then, another guy knows that the minimal catch rate is on, and he just go for it and catch it. Meh, I don't really like it.

Sorry for bad englando

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Dabomstew
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Re: Standard Race Settings

Post by Dabomstew » Tue May 06, 2014 12:45 am

Okay, some quick replies:
Setting "Nerf X accuracy" is not cool. Literally no reason for it, unless you really hate how broken sleep moves are Kappa. Same with "Update Type Effectiveness". No reason either.
The only possible reply I can give for this is Kappa . Nerf XAcc is necessary at least for races, to stop people just cheesing the whole E4 with Xacc sleep or Spore.
Experience is easy, we can simply put all Pokemon on the same curve. This way slow curve Pokemon like Gyarados or Tauros could be viable to use. We could choose to make randomizers easier (all pokes in Medium-slow/Medium-Fast curve) or harder (all Pokemon in Slow curve). The real reason for this would be to make all Pokemon have the opportunity to be good.
As Javi said, we have already implemented / tested this and it seems to work well
I feel like giving all Pokemon 3 moves at start (or 4 if they normally start with 4) and making a set exp curve for all Pokemon will be a good thing to test.


Also already done, also pretty universally loved.
TLDR: Gen 1 random items = good.

Gen 2+ Random items = currently horrible, if fixed possibly Ok
Yeah I agree that Random items become a lot more useless (at least for races) in later gens. Will have to think about what to do here.
Maybe Creating a "Banlist" for Random Items in Gen 2+
Banlist would have to be switched on/off for race/casual, but it's not a terrible idea.
How 'bout making Alakazam and Gengar have slow Exp Curve Kappa ?
Hesitant to separate out Alaka and Gengar because they aren't really legendaries, but they are still really OP even when EXP curves are universalised the normal way. Maybe.
- Crit fix. That means crit is no longer based on speed, so the crit formula is actually the same as gen 2 and above. That kind of sucks. It's been tested aswell, and what it does, is removing ALL the troll on the game, making it way easier. That easy that is a little bit boring. We can be agree that is not a good fix.
This feature is NOT turned on in the randomizer preset.
- Type changing: It's like... why? This is gen 1, we all know how gen 1 is made, i dont see any point of changing all of that... I don't like changing gen 1 mechanincs. Even tho its... logic, but thats how gen 1 is, and we are playing gen 1.
Nor is this one, it's OFF in the preset by default. I'm not going to remove features just because someone could accidentally turn them on for a race, the randomizer isn't just for you guys =p
- Minimal catch rate: That means you can catch every pokemon easily. I personally don't like it, becuse a main reason: Mewtwo. Mewtwo is a monster, with really high stats, and 4 moves. But it has a problem. Its nearly impossible to catch. If you want to go for a mewtwo, you have to deal with the low catchrate, as a "punish". Its like, oh, i see a mewtwo, first ball cause minimal catch rate, not even close i loose this race.
I agree that Minimum catch rate in its current form isn't balanced, but nor is having a catch rate of 9 for Dragonite in Yellow. It needs to be rebalanced a bit more at least for races, though it's cool for casual%.

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Re: Standard Race Settings

Post by Mountebank » Sun May 11, 2014 3:53 pm

I think the main problem with some of the new changes is that they change the mechanics of the game completely invisibly. Many people who use the randomizer for races have been familiar with the old settings and do not want to spend time learning the complete behavior of the randomizer, so when the new settings are applied they tend to get confused.

In theory, whoever makes the rom should describe what game mechanic changes they make, but this gets very tedious when people join the race channel one by one. In addition, there are too many settings and it is very easy to screw them up, especially since some of the new default changes are not desired. The question I think needs to be considered for each new setting: if someone playing the ROM didn't know this setting was in the game, how much would they get screwed over by it?

In depth:

- Randomized field items are a big success in gen 1. The rock tunnel skip potential combined with the fact that there are many useful items in the game means that even if you have to go out of your way for items it is usually worth it. In addition, because the number of items is not very large, it is very likely that there will be at least 1 pp healing item for e4. For later gens, as Shenanagans mentioned, there are too many bad items, so this will have to be improved.

- 4 starting moves is a big success. This one definitely improved the number of viable starters without making anything new OP. Though I have not tested the later gens much with this setting, it should help with gens 2 and 3 because of the reduced proportion of good moves.

- Standardized exp curve is probably a success. Removing slow curve definitely needed to happen, and the nerf to alakazam and gengar lines is also nice. One potential problem is how hard Brock becomes in red/blue since there are so few trainers to grind with and no medium slow pokemon to outlevel him, but it is probably fine for now. I also don't like how this change is invisible and can screw up people's expectations, but making everything the same kinda balances it out. In gen 2 and r/s/e, I don't think medium fast is good enough because of the steep level curve early on, but this will require more testing.

- Minimum catch rate is probably a success, but it needs a little more work. This change is invisible and will screw with people's expectations for legendary pokemon, since the correct decision is now to try to catch them rather than run, though dragonite having 9 catch rate and stuff like that is really stupid. I really don't like how this was added to the default race settings without much testing in races, and it has taken people by surprise. One possible solution to this problem is to enable minimum catch rate but to remove uber legendary pokemon (mainly mewtwo in gen 1) from early encounter areas.

- The x-acc code tweak needs work. This setting probably screws with expectations more than any other and is completely invisible until you get screwed by it. You don't realize that x acc doesn't work until you buy 15 and miss horn drill, and suddenly you are stuck with an awful moveset and no money. I have had this happen to me personally with a sleep move after I screwed up the race settings, and I have seen it happen to others as well (see golderzoa's forfeit at http://speedrunslive.com/races/result/#!/96400, fissure was a tm in celadon). This change should only be used if everyone in the race is aware of it and definitely should not be part of the default. Even making people aware of it can be tricky though because of people joining races late.

- The crit change code tweak needs work. First, the nerf to slash and crabhammer could easily throw people off if they aren't aware of this setting, but this change is much easier to explain in race chat than the x-acc nerf. The second and larger problem with this change though is that it makes the game too easy because of badge boost stacking. After using 3-5 x items, you get a massive defense and special boost for free from those x items because of gen 1 mechanics, and the only way for the enemy pokemon to break through that is through a critical. Because criticals are much more unlikely, even pokemon with bad defense such as jolteon can get through the game easily because their effective defense after setting up becomes so high that they basically cannot die. Stacking badge boosts would need to be removed for this code tweak to work, and it is probably a good balance change, but again everyone in the race will need to be aware of it and it can be difficult to explain.

TLDR: Remove invisible settings from the default.

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Re: Standard Race Settings

Post by Dabomstew » Tue May 13, 2014 2:36 pm

Quick update to the randomizer today, mostly for non-race changes but a couple of small changes to the default preset.
  • Minimum catch rate is back off by default. It was an invisible change that messed up stuff if you didn't know it was on, and it was also imbalanced in the case that there was a Mewtwo on Route 1/2/etc.
  • XAcc tweak is also now off by default. The invisibility issue was too strong for this one, though I think it's a good balance change if made more visible, so that will be the next thing to look at.
  • Wild held items are back to being randomized in races by default. The fact that they weren't in 1.6.0 was a preset-related bug.
EDIT: Also removed xacc tweak from defaults for now.

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Re: Standard Race Settings

Post by Sanqui » Tue May 13, 2014 2:52 pm

Why not add some text on the New game screen with a summary of the randomizer settings (and, say, date+time of generation). That sounds like an ideal solution to the "invisibility" issue. FrankerZ
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Re: Standard Race Settings

Post by Dabomstew » Tue May 13, 2014 2:59 pm

Sanqui wrote:Why not add some text on the New game screen with a summary of the randomizer settings (and, say, date+time of generation). That sounds like an ideal solution to the "invisibility" issue. FrankerZ
That does sound like a good idea. It'd be easy to implement nicely for gen1/2, the issue would be making it for gen3-5 with my non-existent ARM assembly skills Kappa . It might just have to be a text hack in those games.

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Re: Standard Race Settings

Post by Dabomstew » Fri May 16, 2014 8:18 pm

Update 1.6.1 today had a single change to the preset:

Instead of 4 starting moves only being an option for gen1, it is now an option for all English main series games except Gold/Silver (due to space constraints). As such it will be included by default when you randomize these games.

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