Pause manipulation for spinners

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Exarion
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Pause manipulation for spinners

Post by Exarion » Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:54 pm

Not to be confused with bag manipulation. This technique involves opening only the main menu (~10 frames) to safely pass spinners. Opening the bag wastes ~120 frames (plus some lag frames that don't count toward IGT).

As Mountebank noted in another thread, Type A and B spinners can spin only every 32 frames. Passing a spinner on foot or bike takes 16 frames, so if you begin your pass during a 16-frame window, you can pass safely. If you begin your pass from a stationary position, such as after opening the main menu, you have an 8-frame window because of the turn frame.

You can calculate your window by knowing when the spinner's clock begins ticking. This can be achieved in a variety of ways -- running to manipulate them, loading them on the map for the first time, exiting a cutscene, etc.

Example with running: Timmy on Route 110. Run to the tile that's below him and to his left. This will force him to face left and reset his clock to frame 0. Now walk two tiles to his right and press Start. You'll be in the main menu at frame 33-39, depending on how quickly you press Start (you have to be pretty bad to hit 40+). If he's still facing left (87.5% chance), he won't be able to spin until frame 64. So simply press Start again and then hold up to safely pass him on frame 57-63. If he's spun on frame 32 to face right (12.5% chance), redo the manipulation until he doesn't spin.

In the example above, you have an 87.5% chance of saving ~110 frames and a 12.5% chance of losing a bit more time. Someone more math-savvy than me can probably calculate the average time loss from a theoretically infinite number of 12.5% spins, but I'm fairly confident it's less than 770 frames, which is the break-even point.

The pause doesn't actually manipulate the spinners, so perhaps a better term could be used. But because of human reaction times, the pause is necessary to ensure you don't hit a spinner after a frame 32 pass.

Spinners that can/should be pause manipulated

Sapphire
Janice 1
Janice 2
(will add more later)

Emerald
Karen 1
Karen 2
Timmy 1
Brice
Colin
(will add more later)

Fire Red
(will add more later)

The other thread can be found here: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=410
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/exarionu
Pokemon Red speedrunning guide: http://pastebin.com/CkVA5yvJ

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Amoeba
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Re: Pause manipulation for spinners

Post by Amoeba » Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:00 pm

Damn this is clever, I like it. Pause manip is probably a misleading title as you said but there's not much else you could call it, unless you lumped it in with running manip as an offshoot.
Regardless, nice find~
EDIT: Just realised that this method is better for every spinner that fell under the "imperfect running manip" category, pre bag manip. Basically any spinner that we used to manip by running to a tile, then walking 2 into their line of sight.
~

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RXFADEZ
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Re: Pause manipulation for spinners

Post by RXFADEZ » Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:42 pm

So if I understand this correctly, spinners like Karen can be manipped to face a direction, then if you pause before the turn frame (before you walk past them) you have a high chance of dodging them? Are there any "imperfect" spinners that this would be too risky/slow for though?

Exarion
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Re: Pause manipulation for spinners

Post by Exarion » Sun Sep 13, 2015 1:12 am

You have a 100% chance of dodging them if you open the menu within 8 frames. This is easy while on foot but difficult while on bike, because you have to bonk or carefully slow down before opening the menu. If you feel that your menu was too slow, revert to bag manip.

This manipulation doesn't work with Type C spinners at all. The only type C spinner I recall is Chester, but there may be others.
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/exarionu
Pokemon Red speedrunning guide: http://pastebin.com/CkVA5yvJ

pirateluck
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Re: Pause manipulation for spinners

Post by pirateluck » Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:10 am

There is actually no need to go under Timmy and run left, you can simply just run to his btm-left and start walking.

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Amoeba
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Re: Pause manipulation for spinners

Post by Amoeba » Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:05 am

You can pirate but its an imperfect manip if you have to walk 2 tiles before entering their line of sight, because it takes 32 frame to walk there and every spinner's first opportunity to spin is after 32 frames.
~

pirateluck
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Re: Pause manipulation for spinners

Post by pirateluck » Sun Sep 13, 2015 11:27 am

Sorry for the confusion, I misread exarion's post :shock: anyways good idea to reduce time wasted on bag manip.

The only other place I can think that this can be used for sapphire is at the team aqua cavern but since we need to turn twice during the manip, it's probably not feasible

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