Nerfing Baton Pass

[JoeTheRapper]

So the elites at smogon don't want to suspect pinsir, which I can understand. They've decided to put baton pass up for a potential suspect this time when it really hasn't gotten that much better since last gen. Making baton pass worse was overdue though, as such a strat ruins part of the competitive aspect. I'd like to see your opions on this matter. Blissey for RU.

[Akiiru]

Joe pls

"Preliminary notes: this is by no means a suspect thread, nor it is guaranteed that the move Baton Pass will ever be brought up for a formal suspect test."

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ba ... s.3504331/

[JoeTheRapper]

Akiiru you have to ruin my fun at every corner.. Pls no bannerino.

[JoeTheRapper]

Fixed the OP because Akiiru has to copy paste a paragraph on a missed word. Now, baton pass is an awful strategy in my opinion. A single crit being capable of breaking the chain is an example of a disadvantage that is presented to baton pass users. In gen 6, scolipede is nearly all that baton pass gained. Having speed boost allows him to either sweep himself or send off BP's, and causes problems for unprepared teams. However, I feel that simply only allowing one BP mon per team would be an aggressive and deserving nerf to baton pass.

[Akiiru]

A complex ban of Speed Boost + Baton Pass or just outright banning Espeon would be a suitable nerf for Baton Pass. I don't think there's any need to be that restrictive with the ban as quick passing and running Baton Pass for Pursuit dodging and momentum grabbing are a viable strategies. Sure, this hits the only thing Ninjask can do well, but Ninjask is pretty shit anyways.

Also, Baton Pass gained more than just Scolipede. Mr. Mime's new Fairy typing and Sylveon basically being a (much) better Umbreon help it immensely. Scolipede is also 100x better than Ninjask. Scolipede alone probably made Baton Pass a viable strategy this generation.

Baton Pass can be very effective. If it wasn't, there wouldn't be a need to discuss it. The standard Baton Pass chain (Consisting of Scolipede, Vaporeon, Espeon, Sylveon, Mr. Mime, and Zapdos) pretty much shits on most standard teams (Which have other things that aren't Baton Pass to worry about.) as well as making battles heavily based on team match-up.

You either have something for it or you don't and if you don't you lose at team preview. In fact, Baton Pass teams started running Zapdos just to help stop Talonflame and Mega Pinsir, things that would normally check Baton Pass.

Joe also brings up another great point. Since Taunt, Perish Song, and phasing are stopped by Mime + Espy, to break Baton Pass chains after they have started setting up, you need a crit. Unless you like to run Focus Energy + Scope Lense on every team, this makes Baton Pass pretty difficult to break with just your standard team.

[JoeTheRapper]

"A complex ban of Speed Boost + Baton Pass or just outright banning Espeon would be a suitable nerf for Baton Pass"

For the first ban, smogon would clearly be opposed to it. As we saw with the swagger suspect, where the move itself was banned as opposed to swagger + prankster. You are correct when you say that banning speed boost + BP would be efficient. It gives the passer free turns to sub/protect while the opponent frantically attempts to phase or kill the passer. Using Iron defense in conjunction with Speed boost BP allows a fast BP without large amounts of damage being dealt, or in the case of BP chains, giving you better oppritunity to set up defense boosts. (Obviously talking scolipede here).

The second ban, espeon, will likely not happen in the way you suggested. Espeon is outright garbage if removed from a BP team. Nerfing espeon in another way would be a cause for a complex ban, ceratinly enough. Banning magic bounce + BP on the same team would nerf espeon to a great extent, and in my opinion is the best solution if we decide to go down the route of nerfing espeon.

[Akiiru]

"A complex ban of Speed Boost + Baton Pass or just outright banning Espeon would be a suitable nerf for Baton Pass"

For the first ban, smogon would clearly be opposed to it. As we saw with the swagger suspect, where the move itself was banned as opposed to swagger + prankster. You are correct when you say that banning speed boost + BP would be efficient. It gives the passer free turns to sub/protect while the opponent frantically attempts to phase or kill the passer. Using Iron defense in conjunction with Speed boost BP allows a fast BP without large amounts of damage being dealt, or in the case of BP chains, giving you better oppritunity to set up defense boosts. (Obviously talking scolipede here).

The second ban, espeon, will likely not happen in the way you suggested. Espeon is outright garbage if removed from a BP team. Nerfing espeon in another way would be a cause for a complex ban, ceratinly enough. Banning magic bounce + BP on the same team would nerf espeon to a great extent, and in my opinion is the best solution if we decide to go down the route of nerfing espeon.

Smogon is not one entity who decides all things. It is a community. On that note, Swagger was unhealthy for the game on it's own, even without Prankster. However, Baton Pass is only being considered when used with a full chain. This allows more wiggle room with bans. In addition to this, there are only three Speed Boost 'Mons who have access to Baton Pass and one is already banned. The damage done would be pretty minimal. I'm sure Ninjask could find a place as a revenge killer with Infiltrator or something down in NU.

Another possible complex ban is Magic Bounce + Baton Pass. Or if you wanted to get really specific Espeon + Scolipede. The best course of action for Espeon is to suspect it into UU. If it isn't too strong for UU, then just do a complex ban and be done with it. However, if it's found to be too troublesome for UU, then it should be banned.

Overall, I don't think Espeon is the big problem here. Good Baton Pass teams will carry Mental Herb for taunts anyways and Magic Bounce is pretty valuable. I think the problem is how many free boosts you get out of Scolipede and that's what should be addressed.

I'm completely against restricting how many passers you can have on a team and I honestly feel that a Speed Boost + Baton Pass ban would be a pretty big hit to Baton Pass. Not enough to invalidate the strategy, but enough to make it so you have to think and plan your plays. Maybe Smeargle would see more use then as well.

[JoeTheRapper]

"

Overall, I don't think Espeon is the big problem here. Good Baton Pass teams will carry Mental Herb for taunts anyways and Magic Bounce is pretty valuable. I think the problem is how many free boosts you get out of Scolipede and that's what should be addressed.

After playing some more BP team, I'd have to agree with you here. Espeon being a thing makes us more prepared to deal with BP with alternative methods opposed to phazing. Scolipede is what I'd say is giving me more trouble, if it can get a sub up you may be in for some shit, as raw bp (sub protect SD BP, yes that's a thing) scolipede's in the hands of someone decent would be safe from taunters. Since that's a shit set though, I'll bring up ones that are only running one of the (sub protect) moves. Clearly with sub as long as you're faster than the taunter you're safe from it, but something such as thundy can outspeed leaving you in a worse position than you'd like. Mental Herb does prevent it with no opprotunity cost, so let's consider that. Running protect + mental herb nearly guaruntees you can set up well, the only real solution to that is to find an opprotunity to phaze, without them passing to espeon. Imma stop going for now, all I've achieved is proving myself wrong

Edit: Akiiru, why would I mean smogon as a single entity? The elites are clearly trying to avoid complex bans.

[Akiiru]

The way you worded things it sounded like you were referring to Smogon as a single entity.

There is no fair way to fix Baton Pass without a complex ban. So in that case, they will try to keep the ban as simple as possible. So things like "You can only have up to 4 Baton Passers on a team." or "No Scolipede + Espeon + Baton Pass" are most certainly out of the question. I feel the simplest non-complex solution would to probably just be banning Espeon, Scolipede, or Baton Pass. Espy probably being to most reasonable of the three. This is why I mentioned it before.

Edit: On that note, banning Espeon would pretty much completely invalidate Full Baton Pass as a strategy. At least that's the way I see it. Having no protection against Taunt outside of Mental Herb and Magic Coat is pretty gruesome.

[JoeTheRapper]

Would banning espeon really invalidate BP? If you consider, It was a viable strat in gen 4 I believe, where magic boincing wasn't a thing. Of course that's not this gen, but it's an example of a meta where baton pass can be used well without espeon. You are correct, when it would be the strongest nerf to BP. You'd have to realy on being able to OHKO the phazer you're facing, which many times can be a difficult task. Deo D/S or thundy leads end up nearly shutting BP down from turn 1 if they can't run espy, only being safe with mental herb. So if we were to ban espeon, we would hurt baton pass pretty hard, but I doubt it would cease to be a viable and troubling strat, as you'd still have to prepare for it.

[Akiiru]

Would banning espeon really invalidate BP? If you consider, It was a viable strat in gen 4 I believe, where magic boincing wasn't a thing. Of course that's not this gen, but it's an example of a meta where baton pass can be used well without espeon. You are correct, when it would be the strongest nerf to BP. You'd have to reay on being able to OHKO the phazer you're facing, which many times can be a difficult task. Deo D/S or thundy leads end up nearly shutting BP down from turn 1 if they can't run espy, only being safe with mental herb. So if we were to ban espeon, we would hurt baton pass pretty hard, but I doubt it would cease to be a viable and troubling strat, as you'd still have to prepare for it.

A lot has changed for Baton Pass since Generation 4. Primarily team preview and Prankster Taunt.

[JoeTheRapper]

"A lot has changed for Baton Pass since Generation 4. Primarily team preview and Prankster Taunt."

Of course, that's not this gen, .

[Akiiru]

"A lot has changed for Baton Pass since Generation 4. Primarily team preview and Prankster Taunt."

Of course, that's not this gen, .

I don't understand. What does that have to do with my statement?

[JoeTheRapper]

I was using that metagame as an example for a metagame without BP + magic bounce where BP is still usuable, where I then go on to say that the situtation is different this gen, since things have changed. To word it a bit better, a meta could theoretically exist where BP is viable without MB, due to meta shifts, which shows that the current OU metagame could theoretically exist while BP without MB is viable.

[M.BisonFuté]

Baton Pass has been a main staple of Pokémon since his introduction with new users each generation. I would say Magic Bounce from Espeon is a big issue but there's a lot of things to counter (even raw power)

[JoeTheRapper]

Baton Pass has been a main staple of Pokémon since his introduction with new users each generation. I would say Magic Bounce from Espeon is a big issue but there's a lot of things to counter (even raw power)

There is no "counter" to the raw power of baton pass. Counter is a term that is often thrown around without refrence to the original definition "Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax." Nothing is currently capable of dealing with the raw power, only unaware users can come in on a fully set up BP mon, clefable and quagsire being the only ones commonly used. Clefable loses to scolipede, and quag is meh. Therefore either we remove baton pass, or accept the fact that the boosts make a mon strong. Under this same logic, we might as well ban set up mons.

[Akiiru]

Smogon is now suspecting Baton Pass.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy ... s.3507765/

The 3 voting options are
1 Do nothing and keep the metagame as it is;
2 Forbid the use of the move Baton Pass on more than 3 Pokémon on the same team (complex ban);
3 Ban the combination of the move Baton Pass in conjunction with the ability Magic Bounce and the ability Speed Boost (complex ban).

I personally like 3, but it seems the majority will vote for 2. I think 2 starts heading into the silly side of complex banning.

[JoeTheRapper]

I personally like 3, but it seems the majority will vote for 2. I think 2 starts heading into the silly side of complex banning.

Knowing how the OU council works, this suspect was inevitable, I agree that 3 is the best option, as it gives us a useful complex ban that removes the issue many of us have with BP. 2nd Option is silly, why don't we just allow 1 of something absurd, like an uber, on every team? But damn man, I have no clue how this game works anymore.

[Akiiru]

I personally like 3, but it seems the majority will vote for 2. I think 2 starts heading into the silly side of complex banning.

Knowing how the OU council works, this suspect was inevitable, I agree that 3 is the best option, as it gives us a useful complex ban that removes the issue many of us have with BP. 2nd Option is silly, why don't we just allow 1 of something absurd, like an uber, on every team? But damn man, I have no clue how this game works anymore.

I can understand why people are voting for option 2 though. Outright banning Speed Boost/Magic Guard + Baton Pass pretty much ruins Espeon and Scolipede. Going by that logic though, Blaze Blaziken should be brought back from Ubers. Blaze Blaziken isn't even a threat with all the new 'Mons running around OU right now. Imo, the primary goal when suspecting in situations like this should be to avoid a complex ban when possible unless it causes negative and unhealthy effects on the metagame.

It's not even like Espeon and Scolipede would be sent to Ubers. All that would be banned is the combination of Speed Boost/Magic Guard + Baton Pass. Scolipede can still run his standard Speed Boosting Sweeper sets. Espeon can still run Magic Bounce down in lower tiers and still be efficient at what it does.

[deogenerate]

I don't know firsthand how OP Baton Pass is, but having talked to people like craing ;_; and dEnIsSsS who had been #1 on the OU ladder using solely BP teams, it's really tough to break them if they actually know what they're doing. Sure there's Roar and Whirlwind and stuff, but if Ingrain is up then you'll be needing a lot of crits. (maybe lolunware if you've already somehow disabled what can kill clef/quag) As far as I know, 2 seems to be the way most are going.

[bernard02]

I don't know firsthand how OP Baton Pass is, but having talked to people like craing ;_; and dEnIsSsS who had been #1 on the OU ladder using solely BP teams, it's really tough to break them if they actually know what they're doing. Sure there's Roar and Whirlwind and stuff, but if Ingrain is up then you'll be needing a lot of crits. (maybe lolunware if you've already somehow disabled what can kill clef/quag) As far as I know, 2 seems to be the way most are going.

So does it mean it would defend with their own opinion on how they look at it?