Can we have seperate leaderboards for Ruby?

Feedback relating to the forum and wiki.
Locked
User avatar
xxxAceBlade
Schoolkid
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:58 pm
Contact:

Can we have seperate leaderboards for Ruby?

Post by xxxAceBlade » Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:02 am

Since I'm causing lots of trouble today, I figured I might throw this out as well.

Ruby and Sapphire, while released together, are very different games. This is mainly due to the two criminal teams, Team Aqua and Team Magma. In Sapphire, the game we traditionally choose over Ruby for this catagory, Team Aqua are the "bad guys" and you work together with Team Magma to defeat their plans. In Ruby, it's the other way around.

Now why is this such a big difference? Because the whole game changes based on which game you're playing. Each teams respective base in Lilycove city are reversed from the other. This means different movement. Also, each team specializes in a specific type of pokemon, the types made somewhat obvious by their names. This means different trainers with different pokemon.

This is why I'm asking for a leaderboard specifically for Ruby. Granted, the game literally has no times for it, but if people could post times, I'm sure we might see some come out of the woodwork over the next few months.

Also, route-wise, Ruby's endgame is a LOT different than Sapphire's. Sapphire uses Kyogre to absolutely ruin the E4 and Champion, Ruby doesn't have that option. Currently, what I can see are elaborate X item setups for either Groudon or Swampert. Not really a game change, but a more interesting route for sure.
Why the fuck is there a rainbow deer thing on the side of this page?

luckytyphlosion
Pokémon Trainer
Posts: 182
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:26 am

Re: Can we have seperate leaderboards for Ruby?

Post by luckytyphlosion » Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:08 am

Chances of that happening = Chances of Blue NSC becoming an actual category. Kappa

If you really want to track Ruby Times, you can do it on the Challenge% Leaderboards Here: http://wiki.pokemonspeedruns.com/index. ... allenge%25

Note that I don't really have an argument here, but I'm assuming most of the community's response would be no, so I'm posting the Challenge% page.
Jack-Flys are OpieOP.

"GO ASK SANQUI" - luckytyphlosion whenever someone asks about how something in Pokémon Red/Blue works. (this means you exarion Kappa)

User avatar
Zewing
Youngster
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat May 24, 2014 6:30 pm
Location: United States of America

Re: Can we have seperate leaderboards for Ruby?

Post by Zewing » Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:47 am

Honestly, ruby is probably the most different of all other gens since difference in version isn't limited to certain pokemon being found. Ruby has different fights, completely different end game, and different movement in a part of the game (as mentioned by ace). Even though it's considered the "sister' game of sapphire, it's not the simple "we use this version because it has better backup strats." It's "we use sapphire cause kyogre is OP"

I would be extremely interested in seeing ruby being an actual category since it has the best chance out of any "sister" game to have one.
Is Pokemon an RPG?

User avatar
Amoeba
Cooltrainer
Posts: 280
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:26 am
Contact:

Re: Can we have seperate leaderboards for Ruby?

Post by Amoeba » Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:05 pm

Zewing wrote:I would be extremely interested in seeing ruby being an actual category since it has the best chance out of any "sister" game to have one.
Basically this. Ruby is the only case where the sister game has significant differences from a speedrun point of view. Also more love to gen3 isn't a bad thing.
~

luckytyphlosion
Pokémon Trainer
Posts: 182
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:26 am

Re: Can we have seperate leaderboards for Ruby?

Post by luckytyphlosion » Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:22 am

inb4 someone asks the same question for Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire Kappa.

Well, I was wrong about my first post. However, Dabomstew (in chat) said that (semi-quote) "This isn't the first time someone has asked for a Ruby Leaderboard and it won't be the last", so I'm not too sure that there will be leaderboards. But I guess you could compare the changes of Ruby and Sapphire to GS and Crystal.
Jack-Flys are OpieOP.

"GO ASK SANQUI" - luckytyphlosion whenever someone asks about how something in Pokémon Red/Blue works. (this means you exarion Kappa)

User avatar
Dabomstew
Site Admin
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:26 am

Re: Can we have seperate leaderboards for Ruby?

Post by Dabomstew » Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:43 am

I did indeed say that, and the reason for my skepticism there is that every time someone asks for Ruby boards there are always a lack of actual runs to back up the request. If you guys want this to happen, show us real proof that there is a desire for it - complete serious runs of Ruby any% glitchless and demonstrate that the community is willing to compete in this particular category.

As a side note, before anyone gets any funny ideas about, say, a Blue any% glitchless leaderboard, some of the paired games have exactly the same "best case" run and so they won't be considered at all. Right now Ruby is in the best position here, we'd be willing to consider Diamond too, and maybe at a big stretch Black 2. None of the other pairs have differences that are substantial enough to merit anything like this.

User avatar
Amoeba
Cooltrainer
Posts: 280
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:26 am
Contact:

Re: Can we have seperate leaderboards for Ruby?

Post by Amoeba » Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:31 am

Dabomstew wrote:If you guys want this to happen, show us real proof that there is a desire for it - complete serious runs of Ruby any% glitchless and demonstrate that the community is willing to compete in this particular category.
I'll do some routing and have a run down of it, however bad, by the weekend after next.
Just because I like this idea, and Ruby needs love.
~

User avatar
xxxAceBlade
Schoolkid
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Can we have seperate leaderboards for Ruby?

Post by xxxAceBlade » Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:28 am

Amoeba wrote: I'll do some routing and have a run down of it, however bad, by the weekend after next.
Just because I like this idea, and Ruby needs love.
I fuckin love you moobs.
Why the fuck is there a rainbow deer thing on the side of this page?

Vulajin
Schoolkid
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:47 am

Re: Can we have seperate leaderboards for Ruby?

Post by Vulajin » Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:40 pm

I will just register my opinion here that, independent of specific considerations about Ruby, I do not believe that separating any of the matched-pair games is a worthwhile idea. The concept of the paired games was always that you pick the one you want to play. They are not made as independent games, and they are not played as independent games. I understand that some of the matched pairs have differences (which vary in magnitude), but that does not mean we need to make a new category for them. You pick the faster version and I don't see anything wrong with that.

People can make any unofficial categories they want, but I do not see where this warrants an official leaderboard. There's barely even enough gen 3 runners to sustain official leaderboards for Sapphire and Emerald, let alone a new one for Ruby.
Last edited by Vulajin on Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
xxxAceBlade
Schoolkid
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Can we have seperate leaderboards for Ruby?

Post by xxxAceBlade » Fri Sep 12, 2014 3:24 am

Vulajin, there are only 2 times posted for Black 2. Is that leaderboard unofficial as well then? There are more than 2 people trying to route this game, so my guess is that by the end of the year, 3-4 times will be posted up for Ruby. That's a perfectly acceptable number for a leaderboard.

Also, as Dabomstew mentioned in his post, Ruby and Sapphire are the most different of the paired games, so it makes sense that they would merit seperate leaderboards.
Why the fuck is there a rainbow deer thing on the side of this page?

User avatar
Amoeba
Cooltrainer
Posts: 280
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:26 am
Contact:

Re: Can we have seperate leaderboards for Ruby?

Post by Amoeba » Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:15 pm

Vulajin wrote:There's barely even enough gen 3 runners to sustain official leaderboards for Sapphire and Emerald, let alone a new one for Ruby.
This is really, really wrong. Not picking fault with the rest of the argument but there are at least 4 active Sapphire runners (spitfire, Marcus, heinz, timlinktom, not to mention the on-and-off ctm, nonnar and otaku) and a fuck ton of emerald ones (me, vince, roush, dunspars, darkalber, darcovian, otaku and battledood) currently active, never mind how many people are on the leaderboard. I might be wrong, and I'm too lazy to check, but I'm fairly sure that Emerald any% glitchless is the 2nd biggest leaderboard behind red/blue glitchless. ( I checked, it's the 3rd biggest, more people run Yellow than I realised)

As dabomstew said, Ruby getting its own leaderboard really depends on the interest that's shown to it, if I end up being the only runner of it then there's no chance, but hopefully we can get others interested.
~

User avatar
xxxAceBlade
Schoolkid
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Can we have seperate leaderboards for Ruby?

Post by xxxAceBlade » Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:22 pm

Moobs you're forgetting me in that list of Sapph runners. I don't run it well, and I won't run Ruby well, but I'll run it and get a time posted up for sure :)
Why the fuck is there a rainbow deer thing on the side of this page?

Vulajin
Schoolkid
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:47 am

Re: Can we have seperate leaderboards for Ruby?

Post by Vulajin » Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:04 pm

I stand corrected. It's been too long since I last looked at the Sapphire leaderboard, at which time there were like 4 Sapphire times, and the Emerald leaderboard used to be similarly sparse.

That said, I stand by the remainder of my post, and retract my last throwaway sentence, which was obviously rooted in ignorance.

User avatar
Amoeba
Cooltrainer
Posts: 280
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:26 am
Contact:

Re: Can we have seperate leaderboards for Ruby?

Post by Amoeba » Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:10 pm

Lol that apology is amazing. And sorry aceblade, I didn't know :p

In terms of the separation, I think Ruby is a significantly different speedrun to warrant its own category. The game itself isn't massively different from its counterpart, but nearly all of the changes affect the run. Ultimately thought I think it will come down to the route itself, I might lose stock in this line of thought if the run is basically the same as sapphire but running through the E4 with a worse pokemon.
~

User avatar
werster
Site Admin
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:38 am

Re: Can we have seperate leaderboards for Ruby?

Post by werster » Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:26 am

Ruby really isn't that different. Perhaps more relevant is the box this opens if this was ever done.

"Oh if Ruby is different because of the different legendary, why isn't DIamond/Pearl separate?"
"Red/Blue are more different because the main Pokemon shows up at a different rate"
"Gold/Silver has one frame of text different, why aren't they separate?"

Ok, hopefully the last one would never happen, but you catch my drift. If you take down the decision to keep all brother/sister games together, it forces the question to every game, and all of them -are- different. There would have to be a significant difference between not only those games, but the differences between the other games. Which really, the difference in legendaries applies to many of them, just in a "less" significant way, which makes the distinction incredibly hard to make.

Overall the difference between Ruby and Sapphire is somewhere between 40-50 seconds (on average), it's really not enough to merit a splitting of the games, all it would really achieve is a (slight) split of competition between the two games, and therefore less optimised times getting just as much recognition. For the record, you could easily get the record on Ruby right now, if you just love that particular game, nothing is stopping you playing on it.

User avatar
Amoeba
Cooltrainer
Posts: 280
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:26 am
Contact:

Re: Can we have seperate leaderboards for Ruby?

Post by Amoeba » Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:21 pm

I think the first part of that slope is a slippery-slope fallacy, we could easily separate R/S for valid reasons and not separate anything else, again for valid reasons.

However I'm beginning to agree that Ruby isn't that different (purely based off of one practice run). While a portion of the fights are changed, it doesn't look to be enough to warrant its own category. Most of the grunt fights remain OHKOs on every crappy pokemon, and you save some time in admin/leader fights because numels/camerupts are in place of carvanhas/sharpedos, but that's literally the only change in terms of what kip/tomp/pert have to deal with. Then you lose some turns in E4 (and a couple in victory road) because of Groudon, but really the only significantly different fight is Drake. All the others are just X number of set up turns (Kyogre fairly often doesn't need setup turns, and Groudon seems to require 1 or 2) into sweep. Drake is 5-7 setup turns into sweep with (lol) strength.
There's no changes to any other fights in the games, the movement and routing is all the same apart from magma base has a different layout to aqua base, and really there's no great challenge in getting Groudon through the E4/Champ outside of Drake.
I'm still gonna do some runs to really get a feel for it, but its beginning to look, in my mind, a bit pointless.
~

User avatar
Amoeba
Cooltrainer
Posts: 280
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:26 am
Contact:

Re: Can we have seperate leaderboards for Ruby?

Post by Amoeba » Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:58 pm

So one awful run later and I'm almost certain that they shouldn't be different categories. The only changes at all from sapphire are the switched pokemon in the magma fights, the changed layout for the hideout and the final 5 fights + 1 different victory road fight. Everything else plays out just as sapphire plays out, with no notable differences at all for the first 45mins of the run. I was able to just "import" the sapphire notes and tweak one of the mart trips so that groudon could be set up later, and obviously change the groudon fights themselves. I'll spend the rest of the week trying for a better run, but I firmly believe ruby runs should just be part of the R/S category.
Which bums me out to say, was really hoping it would be something new and interesting.
~

Locked

Return to “Feedback and Suggestions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests