Simple Questions & Answers

shark
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Re: Simple Questions & Answers

Post by shark » Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:45 pm

HorouIchigo wrote:For WG skip (and for runs in general) what are the exact exp you have to grind in mt moon for lvl 3 and 4? I know 4 is 138, which is 2 69 exp zubats (lvl 9, right?), but for 3, is it 178? What would be the optimal kills assuming WG skip and not WG skip?
Skipping water gun isn't really worth it on a level 3 - you usually have to fight 3 encounters in Mt Moon to get the 177 exp, and in addition to that you don't get 25 before misty or 30 before the oddish.

On a level 4 with water gun skip fight 2 level 9 zubats, or a level 8 and a level 10, or a level 7 and a level 11, or a level 10 paras and any zubat, or a level 8 paras and a level 8 zubat. Just make sure to evolve early if you haven't killed 2 by the time you get to the 3rd floor.

On a level 3 or 4 without water gun skip, fight any 2 geodudes. The only time this won't get you enough exp is if you have a level 3 nidoran, and both the geodudes you fight are level 7. In this case, just run from the 2nd level 7 and look for a higher level geodude to kill.

If you're new to running this game, I highly recommend picking up water gun and fighting hiker every single run, regardless of your stats. Hiker gives you a lot more exp, so much so that you get thrash a fight early, get level 25 before misty and level 30 before the rock tunnel oddish - which any runner can tell you is fucking amazing.

There are a few other things you can do with exp in Mt Moon. If you have 6 dv speed, 2 carbos is a speed tie with sabrina's alakazam - you can avoid this by fighting the hiker in Mt Moon, and then fighting one more encounter. This gives you enough stat exp to outspend sabrina's alakazam with just 2 carbos.

If you're doing that strat, because of bad speed or any other reason, or if your attack is dreadful (very low 15, 14), or even if you just want to annihilate the scrubs on nugget bridge, you can fight the hiker, and then kill an extra 2 encounters (the only situation in which you can fight just 1 more and still get enough exp to do this is if your nidoran is level 4 and you fight a level 12 paras). This gives you enough exp to get level 20 after Cerulean rival, which means you can then use your 2 rare candies to get level 22 for the bridge, meaning you get way better ranges. It is literally nidoking on fucking steroids lol. For the bridge, you continue as normal, and you get thrash after the pidgey that the 4th trainer has. What this means is that you can one shot literally everything on the bridge (which I have done before).

Hope this helped. As Exarion said, that guide really is exhaustive, I highly recommend taking a look at it :)

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Re: Simple Questions & Answers

Post by Exarion » Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:00 pm

I don't think fighting Geodudes in Mt. Moon is ever worth it, regardless of your stats or time. The Hiker is slightly slower on average, but it's safer and more consistent in many areas:

- You get Lv. 17 for the Grimer in Mt. Moon, which gives you a chance to OHKO with a crit
- You get Lv. 18 for the Koffing in Mt. Moon, which likely guarantees a 2HKO (normally about 50% to 2HKO)
- You get Lv. 20 for the Weedle on Nugget Bridge, which guarantees a OHKO (normally about 60%)
- You get Lv. 20 for the Lv. 14 Pidgey on Nugget Bridge, which gives you a chance to OHKO without a crit
- You get Lv. 23 and Thrash for the second Pidgey/Nidoran fight, eliminating the threat of Sand-Attack
- You take less damage on Nugget Bridge, so you don't risk dying or running low on Potions
- You get Lv. 25 for Staryu, which guarantees a OHKO (normally about 90%)
- You get Lv. 30 for the Oddish in Rock Tunnel, which greatly increases your chance to OHKO
- You guarantee that you'll get some Mt. Moon experience
- You get an extra $350 for Celadon shopping
- You get better red bar level-ups throughout the run
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Re: Simple Questions & Answers

Post by HorouIchigo » Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:46 am

Thanks for all the awesome extensive answers! I've been running for not a long time (started looking into strats in mid May perhaps?), but I'm already very familiar with all the strats, just don't remember exactly all the numbers. I've done hiker until I got my 1st PB, and know how much better bridge is with hiker. Since my goal is 1:55 (PB is 1:59 right now, but I can save time really easily because that run has no paras, 1 minute cans, 1st red bar with boom, 2 extra trainers (rock tunnel and victory road), bad virid rival due to lvl up, and bad bruno and agatha because I forgot to elixir there and wasted an x acc in panic by switching) right now, would you recommend always using hiker strats then Exarion?
At what point of goal time would you recommend NOT doing hiker due to time constraints?
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Re: Simple Questions & Answers

Post by Exarion » Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:10 am

HorouIchigo wrote:Thanks for all the awesome extensive answers! I've been running for not a long time (started looking into strats in mid May perhaps?), but I'm already very familiar with all the strats, just don't remember exactly all the numbers. I've done hiker until I got my 1st PB, and know how much better bridge is with hiker. Since my goal is 1:55 (PB is 1:59 right now, but I can save time really easily because that run has no paras, 1 minute cans, 1st red bar with boom, 2 extra trainers (rock tunnel and victory road), bad virid rival due to lvl up, and bad bruno and agatha because I forgot to elixir there and wasted an x acc in panic by switching) right now, would you recommend always using hiker strats then Exarion?
At what point of goal time would you recommend NOT doing hiker due to time constraints?
I would recommend using Hiker strats for every Nidoran except a Level 4 with 14-15 DV Attack. With that Nidoran, you can easily kill Zubats and/or Paras if you see them, and the Machop/Geodude guy on Route 25 is a lot easier.

If you want to go for 1:54 or better, I would skip the Hiker and Mt. Moon experience with Level 3 Nidorans that have 14-15 DV Attack, as well as with Level 4 Nidorans that have 10-13 DV Attack. Having said that, you should try to factor in other variables such as your Speed DV, your time and which flier you caught. For example, if I were two minutes behind entering Mt. Moon with a Level 3 Nidoran that has 11-13 DV Attack and 13-15 DV Speed, I would skip the Hiker and Mt. Moon experience.
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Re: Simple Questions & Answers

Post by jpaintrain » Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:16 pm

Hiker is only worth it with really bad attack nidorans.

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Re: Simple Questions & Answers

Post by HorouIchigo » Mon Sep 01, 2014 1:28 am

Just did a run and manage to see all the splits I can save time (except for rock tunnel, where I died because I had 0 DV special, but saved 2:30 mins on surge, 20 secs on koga, 40 secs on victory road and 35 secs on bruno just by not getting trolled by cans and correcting mistakes I did, that were not RNG dependant), so I can easily save the 4 minutes even tho' I did hiker strats, so for my goal, hiker is 100% the way to go. Only if I got good nidos, I would have had the 1:55 right today. So thanks for all the input, hopefully I'll have a 1:55 soon :)
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Re: Simple Questions & Answers

Post by Keizaron » Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:21 pm

So was there ever a consensus on colour scheme changes? I really like the brown one because of the old time-y look, but damn does it simplify Rock Tunnel.

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Re: Simple Questions & Answers

Post by Decon082 » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:11 am

Keizaron wrote:So was there ever a consensus on colour scheme changes? I really like the brown one because of the old time-y look, but damn does it simplify Rock Tunnel.
Rock Tunnel is easy anyway though... it doesn't matter which color you use OpieOP
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shark
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Re: Simple Questions & Answers

Post by shark » Sat Sep 20, 2014 2:37 pm

Decon082 wrote:
Keizaron wrote:So was there ever a consensus on colour scheme changes? I really like the brown one because of the old time-y look, but damn does it simplify Rock Tunnel.
Rock Tunnel is easy anyway though... it doesn't matter which color you use OpieOP
yeah, it does. you'd be surprised.

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Re: Simple Questions & Answers

Post by Gymfreak739 » Sat Sep 27, 2014 2:24 am

I was in Moobs chat a few days ago, and the topic was brought to Pokedoll. I asked the question why is Pokedoll not a glitch, and no one had a good response, so I figured I'd ask here. Why is Pokedoll not a glitch?

I'll go through some common answers:

1) "It's an exploit, not a glitch."

Technically, every glitch is an exploit. Trainer fly, for example, is exploiting the fact that it takes trainers time to turn into their positions. Any glitch is exploiting some part of the game.

2) "It's doing what its supposed to do, the developers just didn't expect that."

Well, it's technically an error in the game, because the game should set a flag to not use Pokedoll there.

3) "Well, it's not messing with the programming of the game."

This one is a tricky one. All glitches confuse the game to do certain commands. For example, save corruption confuses the game into thinking that your Pokemon menu is underflowed. In Pokedoll's situation, you are confusing the game, because they didn't expect you to use Pokedoll there, and therefore, it just counts as winning the battle.

Overall, unless someone convinces me that Pokedoll is not a glitch (which will probably happen anyways DansGame ) I believe it should be banned from glitch less, and that Rocket Game Corner must be mandatory (even though it is boring, but rules are rules).

PS: I just want a simple answer for this, so take my opinion with a grain of PJSalt and don't get too PJSalt .

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Re: Simple Questions & Answers

Post by Luckless » Sat Sep 27, 2014 8:10 am

Gymfreak739 wrote:I was in Moobs chat a few days ago, and the topic was brought to Pokedoll. I asked the question why is Pokedoll not a glitch, and no one had a good response, so I figured I'd ask here. Why is Pokedoll not a glitch?
The first common answer you responded to is wrongly worded:

It's a sequence break, not a glitch.
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Re: Simple Questions & Answers

Post by Sanqui » Sat Sep 27, 2014 11:09 am

The word "glitch" is often misused. Using the Pokédoll on Cubone's mother is not a glitch, it's a bug. It doesn't result in any undefined behavior, it's just a programming oversight.

If you banned bugs, you'd have a whole slew of other problems, most importantly probably redbar.

Even the term glitchess is not perfect. If somebody gets the sound glitch, it doesn't automatically disqualify them, even though by strict definitions it should.

Maybe you're simply looking for "skipless"/"no sequence breaks", or "exploitless". And I wouldn't be personally opposed, even though the Pokédoll exploit has tradition.
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Re: Simple Questions & Answers

Post by Torchickens » Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:29 pm

Sanqui wrote:The word "glitch" is often misused. Using the Pokédoll on Cubone's mother is not a glitch, it's a bug. It doesn't result in any undefined behavior, it's just a programming oversight.

If you banned bugs, you'd have a whole slew of other problems, most importantly probably redbar.

Even the term glitchess is not perfect. If somebody gets the sound glitch, it doesn't automatically disqualify them, even though by strict definitions it should.

Maybe you're simply looking for "skipless"/"no sequence breaks", or "exploitless". And I wouldn't be personally opposed, even though the Pokédoll exploit has tradition.
I personally think that the definitions of glitch and bug are subjective. People calling most things glitch is a little like people calling all unused content and prerelease content "beta elements" . Even though the name "beta elements" as a catch all term is misleading, because of 'beta' being supposed to refer to a specific stage in software development (I'd rather call early concept art pre-release information and unused content found in the final game unused content for instance), it's frequently used like that.

There was a discussion on Smash Wiki regarding that, and Toomai pointed out that incorrect language becomes correct through usage, even though he didn't like this idea.

With glitches, bugs, sequence breaks and derivatives of glitches, there seems to be confusion as to what constitutes what. Bugs are sometimes referred to specifically as a problem in the code, to which the Focus Energy oversight would be called a 'bug', but some would say it's also a glitch. Sequence break is a more specific term that Marowak Ghost skip would definitely fall under, but could it also be a glitch or a bug?

In the English Pokémon glitch community its common to see people referring to many unintended anomalies as glitches.

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be really a word that describes itself for unintended anomalies, which I personally wouldn't use because it's a mouthful and may confuse people.

Another problem is that 'unintended anomalies' may refer to exploits that are not glitches or bugs, such as date change exploits (e.g. changing the clock to 23:59 to get a new event to happen) and RNG abuse. I refer to a non-glitch exploit as "A trick that lets you not play the game normally, even though the effects of it are possible in an intended way", but this is based on my opinion, and I feel the real meaning of a word should be based on how many people use it in a certain way.

As for skipping the Marowak Ghost, I feel that it should both excluded from RBY glitchless. I feel that my opinion may be controversial though.
Last edited by Torchickens on Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Simple Questions & Answers

Post by Vincento341 » Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:52 am

Torchickens wrote:As for skipping the Marowak Ghost and low HP abuse, I feel that they should both be excluded from RBY glitchless, especially skipping the Marowak Ghost. I feel that my opinion may be controversial though.
Now I do realise you talking mainly about the Pokedoll 'exploit', but what I want to point out is how ludicrous what you said in bold was. It's a silly statement because you're not always guaranteed to be at high health, and jingle skipping will be (accidentally) inevitable at some points during the run. Would that mean these runs would be invalid? There's literally no reason red-bar (low HP) abuse should be excluded from runs, firstly because it's not a glitch, and secondly it would be impossible to moderate as a rule regardless. Remember, it's not always necessarily just about the jingle skips and cry skips, not healing (and therefore menuing) is usually faster in general, so what's the point of doing a sub-optimal speedrun?
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Re: Simple Questions & Answers

Post by Torchickens » Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:20 pm

Vincento341 wrote:
Torchickens wrote:As for skipping the Marowak Ghost and low HP abuse, I feel that they should both be excluded from RBY glitchless, especially skipping the Marowak Ghost. I feel that my opinion may be controversial though.
Now I do realise you talking mainly about the Pokedoll 'exploit', but what I want to point out is how ludicrous what you said in bold was. It's a silly statement because you're not always guaranteed to be at high health, and jingle skipping will be (accidentally) inevitable at some points during the run. Would that mean these runs would be invalid? There's literally no reason red-bar (low HP) abuse should be excluded from runs, firstly because it's not a glitch, and secondly it would be impossible to moderate as a rule regardless. Remember, it's not always necessarily just about the jingle skips and cry skips, not healing (and therefore menuing) is usually faster in general, so what's the point of doing a sub-optimal speedrun?
Thanks. Yes, it was ludicrous on hindsight, lol. I take back what I said then, I'm only against Marowak Ghost skip being used in glitchless.

I shouldn't have said what I said regarding low HP. Thanks for pointing that out before I re-read my post (or maybe I'd overlook it as people probably do, but now at least I understand the impracticality and the needlessness to work around it now that you made your post).

Like you say, it can't really be avoided, and why would you need to ensure high HP or losing time by healing. Technically you can save time with red-barring (as most speedrunners seem to know). This is probably in an an unintentional way of saving time due to, from what I've heard, the low HP sound replacing channel one, but I feel like Game Freak wouldn't see that as a problem, just a technical limitation.

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Re: Simple Questions & Answers

Post by gerter2 » Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:59 pm

Hey guys, I know WR isn't viable on an emulator, but is it still ok to go on the leader board? I see you can search by "no emulator" so I'm assuming it is, just want clarification.

Thanks

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Re: Simple Questions & Answers

Post by Gymfreak739 » Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:13 am

So, I'm routing a completely arbitrary category right (Pokemon Yellow Any% No Item Underflow, if anyone is interested), and I want to DSum for Abra, on route 6, with Nidoking in front. I tried to use the Gengar one from NSC, but it doesn't exactly work. My question is, is there an easy way to make a DSum chart?

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Re: Simple Questions & Answers

Post by eddaket » Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:24 pm

gerter2 wrote:Hey guys, I know WR isn't viable on an emulator, but is it still ok to go on the leader board? I see you can search by "no emulator" so I'm assuming it is, just want clarification.

Thanks
Yep you can post emulator times all you want (assuming you use an allowed emulator), even if it's the fastest time. The only thing you aren't allowed to do is add the time to the World Record page on this site's wiki.

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Re: Simple Questions & Answers

Post by Luckless » Tue Jan 27, 2015 10:42 am

Gymfreak739 wrote:So, I'm routing a completely arbitrary category right (Pokemon Yellow Any% No Item Underflow, if anyone is interested), and I want to DSum for Abra, on route 6, with Nidoking in front. I tried to use the Gengar one from NSC, but it doesn't exactly work. My question is, is there an easy way to make a DSum chart?
The only difference between using Gengar and Nidoking would be the length of cry, so in theory you should be able to adjust the DSUM chart you have already to consider this. Basically Nidoking's cry is slightly longer than Gengar's cry so you should be doing less steps/waiting less time after an encounter before finding another one because the difference in cry takes up some of that time already.
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Re: Simple Questions & Answers

Post by Gymfreak739 » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:38 am

Was recently watching Thomas A. Sanders Yellow NSC run OpieOP and I am wondering why we can't just warp from the robbed house in RTA attempts. Also, why is it TAS only?

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Re: Simple Questions & Answers

Post by Dabomstew » Sat Jan 31, 2015 5:34 am

It's not TAS only, it's a new strat for Yellow NSC in particular since Dry Underflow came out. Before, we were tied to the location of the fresh water and so it was fastest to warp from the place we achieved underflow, a.k.a. the guardhouse itself. Now we warp from the closest available house after catching Missingno, which happens to be that one by a few steps.

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Re: Simple Questions & Answers

Post by Gymfreak739 » Sat Jan 31, 2015 5:44 am

Awesome. Can you post the new route for this then? (Or, just tell me the requirements for the dry warp)

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Re: Simple Questions & Answers

Post by SwampySauce » Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:50 am

Hey everyone, i'm new to speedrunning and i've been a pokefan since a child. I would really like to try to get into speed running the old gen 1 games and see how well i do. Does anyone have any tips/tricks/pointers for a noobie speedrunner?

Thanks
-Swampy

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Re: Simple Questions & Answers

Post by Luckless » Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:01 pm

SwampySauce wrote:Hey everyone, i'm new to speedrunning and i've been a pokefan since a child. I would really like to try to get into speed running the old gen 1 games and see how well i do. Does anyone have any tips/tricks/pointers for a noobie speedrunner?

Thanks
-Swampy
You can find general Tips and Tricks for Red/Blue here, as well as Overworld Movement tips here and Routing Tips here.
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Re: Simple Questions & Answers

Post by SwampySauce » Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:43 am

Thanks :-)

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