Game Time vs Real Time

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Game Time vs Real Time

Post by Luckless » Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:34 am

This was something that was discussed on the wiki a bit before this forum existed. To see the original place for this discussion click here.

The Facts

In Generation 1 Games...
  • - The game timer works by counting frames and using the conversion 60 frames = 1 second (note that the handheld consoles actually run at 59.7275 frames per second).
    - The game timer does not count during the intro and continues counting through credits, even after the game time is displayed during the hall of fame.
    - The game timer is displayed to the minute during the hall of fame.
    - In Pokemon Yellow, the game timer does not count during any of Pikachu's sound effects (http://youtu.be/i7UBsaSm5ZQ).
The Debate

Game Time Pros:
  • - It's there for all to see at the end of the run, regardless of if you have a timer on-screen or not.
    - It gives clearer distinctions between how good runs are because a whole minute is much less likely to be solely because of RNG.
    - It's a lot less hassle, you don't have to be strict about when you start and stop your own timer.
    - It seems more official because the game itself is showing the time.
    - It gets rid of version differences for the most part.
    -
Game Time Cons:
  • - It causes tied World Records/times in general.
    - It actually isn't completely accurate due to the frame conversion as stated above.
    - The time is only displayed to the minute, It doesn't show the seconds.
    -
Real Time Pros:
  • - It allows runs that are seemingly optimized beyond improvement to be improved, even if it's a matter of seconds.
    - It unties World Records.
    - The times it gives will be down to the seconds.
    - The majority of other speedrunning communities use it.
    - It's more beginner-friendly (by allowing saves).
    -
Real Time Cons:
  • - It seems unfair to say that a run is worse than another just because another beat it by a few seconds that were likely caused by RNG. (e.g. useless crits)
    - It means we would have to re-time a huge amount of runs.
    - It means we would have to enforce stricter rules regarding emulators etc. (which could be debatable/controversial)
    - Many times currently on the leaderboards will have to be removed.
    - It unties World Records.
    -
These may not be ALL the pro's and con's so please let me know if I missed something, just noted them down to get the ball rolling. Also these are all just taken from previous discussions about this topic, none of this is my opinion or represents the views of any admins or staff of the site.

Let's settle this once and for all!
Last edited by Luckless on Thu May 08, 2014 12:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [TALK] Game Time vs Real Time

Post by luckytyphlosion » Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:40 am

Maybe we should add a VBA category Kappa.

Also, how is "It unties WRs a Con"? I don't get it.
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Re: [TALK] Game Time vs Real Time

Post by Zatherwrath » Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:01 am

I personally think we should stick with game time as the final time. We could always use real time for positioning. For example, 2:06:18 would be ahead of 2:06:26.In that case, we would list both of them as having the same game time, but put the user with the :18 time ahead of the :26 time. Honestly, the whole "real time" dilemma is only really concerning those who want sole possession of World Record. Getting a game time close to World Record or tieing it should be an amazing achievement, due to the RNG nature of Pokemon. If it was a skill-based game, that would be another story. But the RNG nature of the game should be enough reason to keep the game time format in my humble opinion, especially since the route for glitchless is pretty optimized.
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Re: [TALK] Game Time vs Real Time

Post by Shenanagans » Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:06 am

The way I see it is that if 2 people tie for WR when 1 run is CLEARLY better there should be a switch to game time. in longer categories (mostly glitchless runs) game time is no issue. Gold/Silver WR is perfectly fine as a tie. However shorter categories (see red SS glitched when there was a 5 way tie for WR) runs can be drastically better then other times, yet it would still be a tie. I think the way we have it set up now is fine. anything under an hour needs to be RTA. anything over can be whatever the community wants.
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Re: [TALK] Game Time vs Real Time

Post by MeGotsThis » Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:08 am

I would like to add for the pros for using Game Time and for beginner speedrunners. This should encourage beginner speedrunners to save so they do not have to start over.

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Re: [TALK] Game Time vs Real Time

Post by Tigerkyle » Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:09 am

As long as runs are single-segment, I feel in game time is just the best way to go. Real time is for non single-segment for obvious reasons. As long as it's single-segment, there's no reason for IGT not to be consistent. And if two people have the same time for a run, well then they earned it. I don't see anything wrong with having WR ties.

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Re: [TALK] Game Time vs Real Time

Post by Shenanagans » Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:26 am

what I meant by WR ties is like with the SS glitched run. 2 days after my :50 run there was a 5 way tie for 1st. more people could have easily gotten :50 times and cluttered the leaderboards. The category was beginning to look like yellow with save corruption, which is not good.

As for MGT's point I think that's more of a pro for using RTA. Allowing new runners to save at say Lance or Misty would encourage them to do more runs, because every single run could finish. plus at the WR level runs would have to be SS anyways so the saving wouldnt matter at all.
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Re: [TALK] Game Time vs Real Time

Post by heero_fred » Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:30 am

the problem with an IGT tie comes when 1 is on the low end in the seconds and the other is in the high end

how fair is for 2 people to have the "WR" when the time of the first one is (example) 1:55:01 and the other is 1:55:59?

in that scenario runner 1 is almost a whole minute faster than runner 2, yet both of them have the "WR"

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Re: [TALK] Game Time vs Real Time

Post by luckytyphlosion » Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:33 am

The only problem with switching to real time is that some people may have to do another run because emulators still are inaccurate (mostly with the Gold/Silver wr).
MeGotsThis wrote:I would like to add for the pros for using Game Time and for beginner speedrunners. This should encourage beginner speedrunners to save so they do not have to start over.
Shenanagans wrote:The way I see it is that if 2 people tie for WR when 1 run is CLEARLY better there should be a switch to game time. in longer categories (mostly glitchless runs) game time is no issue. Gold/Silver WR is perfectly fine as a tie. However shorter categories (see red SS glitched when there was a 5 way tie for WR) runs can be drastically better then other times, yet it would still be a tie. I think the way we have it set up now is fine. anything under an hour needs to be RTA. anything over can be whatever the community wants.
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Re: [TALK] Game Time vs Real Time

Post by werster » Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:56 am

heero_fred wrote:the problem with an IGT tie comes when 1 is on the low end in the seconds and the other is in the high end

how fair is for 2 people to have the "WR" when the time of the first one is (example) 1:55:01 and the other is 1:55:59?

in that scenario runner 1 is almost a whole minute faster than runner 2, yet both of them have the "WR"
You have no fucking idea how sick I am of people saying this. In this scenario, one person has 1:55, and the other has 1:55. They are both the same time, and assuming they are both the fastest, they both have WR. And somehow in your mind, this is a bad thing?? Hold on for a second while I get my sarcasm on.

Two runners have both gotten a fantastic run and a fantastic time, how dare they both have the honour of both called the record holder. What a sacrilege and vicious act that is! It's an absolute atrocity to have more than one person walk away from the game happy and satisfied, honestly I don't know why you would bother even running the games if that's a possibility.

If there was an clear difference between two runs that produced the same IGT (which, is the only thing people seem to have an issue with), then it's, as the phrase suggests, clear which one is better. So why on earth do you care if two people get the accolades of having the World Record?? It's not as if the person in this scenario suddenly has less of an accomplishment to their name with the 1:55:01, nothing has been taken away from them at all. All your taking away is extra satisfaction to the person with the 1:55:59 because you have some misguided idea that this is a good thing?? Because it's "fair"!?!? What does that even mean?!

tl;dr Records being tied is not a bad thing at all and anyone who disagrees needs to learn to think as an individual.

The game timer is accurate, even if it has a slight disparity to what we call a minute that is 100% irrelevant, the accuracy within itself and it's comparisons to other versions of itself are all that matter

Runs that S+Q have always used real time why is this even in the cons

The majority of other games either don't have an IGT or they have a terrible one this is a terrible point

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Re: [TALK] Game Time vs Real Time

Post by Vulajin » Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:07 am

I lean on the side of game time as well. We have used it for Pokémon speedruns for literally years, and it has worked just fine. Ties are not the big deal you make them out to be, unless you are involved in the tie and for some reason just can't live with yourself having a tie, in which case get the WR and be done with it.

I am not sympathetic to arguments that other games mostly use real-time. First, which other games? I know plenty of other games that use game time and plenty that use real time. The majority of the Metroid series, for example, uses game time to minute granularity, with Super Metroid being an outlier as of only the last year or two. Regardless, we should not base our actions on other games, because their circumstances will necessarily differ.

Real time does have a serious inconvenience in that any difference in emulator speed forces us to start regulating or disallowing emulators. As long as game time is consistent with itself, there's no problem running almost any emulator, as long as it is known to not screw anything majorly. Even the Pikachu cry thing doesn't matter unless its effect on the game timer differs from platform to platform. It literally does not matter whether 1:51 means one actual hour and 51 actual minutes; all that matters is that it means the same number of frames regardless of the platform.

(edit) It's surprising that the original post never brought one up one of the oft-cited reasons for using real time - switching from single segment to RTA (thus allowing saving and resetting), to be more friendly to beginners. I literally can't think of any other game that specifically runs a game in a way that permits safety strats like saving and reloading to be beginner-friendly. If you want to RTA it to get practice so that you can do single-segment in the future, that's fine, but I don't see why competitive play has to be changed to facilitate practice strats.
Last edited by Vulajin on Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [TALK] Game Time vs Real Time

Post by heero_fred » Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:08 am

I probably need to rephrase my other post,

First of all, I do find the lack of seconds in any IGT to be a con, no matter how accurate it is, however, I do agree that IGT is overall the best option, since it gets rid of version differences for the most part, as well as using different consoles.

And in the case of the scenario I put, I have been in that position, when the Pokepark WR was 2:28 I tied it, however, the old record was 45 seconds faster in RTA than my run, so, at least for me, even If I tied the IGT WR, my run was not as good as the other one, so it had no right to be called a record because the other run had better excecution.

That being said, if the difference between runs comes from only extra text because of luck (like unecessary crits) both runs deserve to be called WR.

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Re: [TALK] Game Time vs Real Time

Post by zackcat » Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:10 am

using a split program is an outside tool and should be considered TAS.
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Re: [TALK] Game Time vs Real Time

Post by zeo285 » Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:27 am

Has anyone made some sort of straw poll to see how the community leans?

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Re: [TALK] Game Time vs Real Time

Post by Shenanagans » Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:31 am

Again I see only 2 real benefits to using rta.

More beginner friendly (by allowing saves) and Limiting Ties.

Limiting ties does not matter to me, if two people have a nearly identical run but somebody loses 2 seconds to a crit or whatever who's to say that run is better. But when Ties become ridiculous there may be a problem, as the runs begin to crowd the WR page (see the old SS glitched 5 way tie) I think RTA can be a good option.

A point to add to this. RTA is really only needed in very fast runs (like 45 minutes to an hour in length max). In glitchless runs there is no reason to use RTA, because any 1:51 is an amazing run and deserves to be called a "WR", however in very fast categories somebody could say fight a whole extra trainer and still achieve the same IGT as another runner.

The other arguement that I feel holds value for RTA is that it is more beginner friendly. Most runners who are starting out will struggle to finish any runs. After days of resets getting crit by Red's Pikachu might be enough to make them quit the game for good. Allowing saves is a great way to help these runners feel like their runs meant something even if they didnt go "Single Segment." I know when I started running gold version I lost 3 runs in a row to red, and it almost made me quit speedrunning as a whole (this was back when I first started streaming). Luckily I kept playing the games and eventually I did finish a run. I wonder how many others have been in this situation but made the choice to quit rather then continue speeedrunning.

TL;DR Game time is fine, however RTA might be a way to help new runners finish runs, which will help the community grow.
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Re: [TALK] Game Time vs Real Time

Post by Meball » Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:41 am

Shenanagans wrote:Again I see only 2 real benefits to using rta.

More beginner friendly (by allowing saves) and Limiting Ties.

Limiting ties does not matter to me, if two people have a nearly identical run but somebody loses 2 seconds to a crit or whatever who's to say that run is better. But when Ties become ridiculous there may be a problem, as the runs begin to crowd the WR page (see the old SS glitched 5 way tie) I think RTA can be a good option.

A point to add to this. RTA is really only needed in very fast runs (like 45 minutes to an hour in length max). In glitchless runs there is no reason to use RTA, because any 1:51 is an amazing run and deserves to be called a "WR", however in very fast categories somebody could say fight a whole extra trainer and still achieve the same IGT as another runner.

The other arguement that I feel holds value for RTA is that it is more beginner friendly. Most runners who are starting out will struggle to finish any runs. After days of resets getting crit by Red's Pikachu might be enough to make them quit the game for good. Allowing saves is a great way to help these runners feel like their runs meant something even if they didnt go "Single Segment." I know when I started running gold version I lost 3 runs in a row to red, and it almost made me quit speedrunning as a whole (this was back when I first started streaming). Luckily I kept playing the games and eventually I did finish a run. I wonder how many others have been in this situation but made the choice to quit rather then continue speeedrunning.

TL;DR Game time is fine, however RTA might be a way to help new runners finish runs, which will help the community grow.
I mean, in the case of Gold/Crystal you can still "finish" your run if you get crit by Pikachu or something. Just go buy whatever items you might have wasted, climb Mt. Silver again and beat Red. Yes, your time will probably be shit but at the very least you would have "finished" your run and your end split would be easily improvable. This also applies to any other game, really (if you die fighting the E4, for example).
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Re: [TALK] Game Time vs Real Time

Post by Shenanagans » Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:56 am

for new runners though saying "just lose 10 minutes of progress" because of bad RNG is pretty rough. If we are making the argument "why is my time worse then his if the only difference is I got critical hit text" then why is it different say if gyarados crit you on lance. You didnt play worse. you just got unlucky, which is a major part of pokemon runs dont get me wrong, but I think that limiting bad luck especially for new runners can be a benefit for RTA. I agree that you can finish any run. But to the runner it won't feel like they finished.

I want this community to grow as best as it can, and RTA has its valid arguments for helping this growth.

RTA does have its major flaws though which is why we are, and will likely continue, to use IGT.
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Re: [TALK] Game Time vs Real Time

Post by Sinstar » Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:23 am

Lol pointless discussion, although in game time should be used for all randomizer world records.
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Re: [TALK] Game Time vs Real Time

Post by Masteri Mori » Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:35 am

Vulajin wrote:Ties are not the big deal you make them out to be, unless you are involved in the tie and for some reason just can't live with yourself having a tie, in which case get the WR and be done with it.
This is largely what I think about the whole situation; none of the current WRs are unbeatable, and if anyone thinks otherwise, then they're wrong. As for the whole 'Who gets to be top of the leaderboard?' issue, I think that the run with the most optimal route/strats, regardless of RTA should be at the top, as people will inevitably click the top link first, and I want them to see how far we have pushed the game to its limits.
Vulajin wrote:(edit) It's surprising that the original post never brought one up one of the oft-cited reasons for using real time - switching from single segment to RTA (thus allowing saving and resetting), to be more friendly to beginners. I literally can't think of any other game that specifically runs a game in a way that permits safety strats like saving and reloading to be beginner-friendly. If you want to RTA it to get practice so that you can do single-segment in the future, that's fine, but I don't see why competitive play has to be changed to facilitate practice strats.
Also this. When I first started running Yellow, I was aware of how brutal the game can be, but I was also aware of the thrill of completing a good run, and I didn't even consider saving and quitting because I'd have felt like I was cheating myself out of an actual accomplishment, and speedrunning in general (for me at least) is all about pushing yourself and the game to their limits, and getting achievements you can be proud of as a result.
Last edited by Masteri Mori on Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [TALK] Game Time vs Real Time

Post by luckytyphlosion » Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:30 pm

Sinstar wrote:Lol pointless discussion, although in game time should be used for all randomizer world records.
The S+Q strats will be too stronk.
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Re: [TALK] Game Time vs Real Time

Post by Tatoba » Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:23 pm

I propose that in exchange for keeping IGT, world record holders must fight to the death in Highlander-style combat. Winner keeps world record and gains the loser's power for himself. Kappa

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Re: [TALK] Game Time vs Real Time

Post by Luckless » Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:31 pm

luckytyphlosion wrote:Also, how is "It unties WRs a Con"? I don't get it.
some joint record holders are happy with a record being tied between them. An example would be the current gold glitchless world record between 5upamayne and Werster. They did a duel commentary over it and if the community were to now say one of them didn't have the world record anymore, that's what it means by the downside of World Records being untied.
zeo285 wrote:Has anyone made some sort of straw poll to see how the community leans?
We take interest in giving a decent amount of discussion time before starting a poll on subjects so that people have time to actually consider other opinions and get a better picture of what they really think, as opposed to deciding on something and discussing it afterwards.

EDIT: Original Post updated.

Update Log:

Added:
IGT Pro: "It gets rid of version differences for the most part"
RTA Pro: "It's More beginner friendly (by allowing saves)"
Extended Disclaimer at the bottom to include "none of it is my own opinion" and about where I got the points from.

Removed:
IGT Con: "Runs that involve saving + quitting show an incredibly different time at the end to how long the runs actually take." (removed because S+Q runs don't use Game Time anyway)
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Re: [TALK] Game Time vs Real Time

Post by blakest » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:38 am

Personally, I'd stick with IGT. But I guess I could see how some would want RTA instead.
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Re: [TALK] Game Time vs Real Time

Post by Chuckolator » Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:58 am

Disclaimer: I know my opinion doesn't mean shit because I don't run games. Still posting anyway.
Luckless wrote: Game Time Pros:
  • It gives clearer distinctions between how good runs are because a whole minute is much less likely to be solely because of RNG.
Real Time Cons:
  • - It seems unfair to say that a run is worse than another just because another beat it by a few seconds that were likely caused by RNG. (e.g. useless crits)
translation: game time is good because we can hide things that made the run slower? RNG or not that's a pretty bad argument in general. It's like saying an FF8 run that plays 50 card games and is 30 minutes slower because of it should be considered faster than one that plays 2, because if you cut the card game time out the former would have the faster time in the end. RNG is a part of the game whether you like it or not, and if you don't want RNG to affect your time, why are you playing Pokemon?
werster wrote:You have no fucking idea how sick I am of people saying this. In this scenario, one person has 1:55, and the other has 1:55. They are both the same time, and assuming they are both the fastest, they both have WR. And somehow in your mind, this is a bad thing?? Hold on for a second while I get my sarcasm on.

Two runners have both gotten a fantastic run and a fantastic time, how dare they both have the honour of both called the record holder. What a sacrilege and vicious act that is! It's an absolute atrocity to have more than one person walk away from the game happy and satisfied, honestly I don't know why you would bother even running the games if that's a possibility.

If there was an clear difference between two runs that produced the same IGT (which, is the only thing people seem to have an issue with), then it's, as the phrase suggests, clear which one is better. So why on earth do you care if two people get the accolades of having the World Record?? It's not as if the person in this scenario suddenly has less of an accomplishment to their name with the 1:55:01, nothing has been taken away from them at all. All your taking away is extra satisfaction to the person with the 1:55:59 because you have some misguided idea that this is a good thing?? Because it's "fair"!?!? What does that even mean?!

tl;dr Records being tied is not a bad thing at all and anyone who disagrees needs to learn to think as an individual.
Hypothetical situation. Say humanity's accepted way of measuring time was different, and it was different in a way that the programmers for Pokemon games decided to display the final time in intervals of what we consider five minutes. Your Yellow 1:55 is now a 0:23, and so is gunner's 1:58. Would you call them equally good runs that should be listed the same? What if it were fifteen minutes? What if it displayed only the hour? The HG WR is now "4", and now someone with an equivalent of 4:59 also gets "4". Now they're tied for WR. Is there a problem with that? If so, why? They're both the same displayed time, is it such an atrocity for another person to get the title of WR holder?

I'm not discounting other pros to game time, but just because some WRs would get untied doesn't mean it's a shit idea and anyone who thinks otherwise is a heartless monster. I guess I'm not thinking like an individual. :/

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Re: [TALK] Game Time vs Real Time

Post by zackcat » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:04 am

honestly just hold a poll. people won't change their stance or opinion, so just hold a vote and go from there.
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