Can someone (or I) edit the route?

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Kcrackatoa
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Can someone (or I) edit the route?

Post by Kcrackatoa » Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:39 pm

Now, before I say anything, I'd like to say I'm not a runner nor do I plan to be one. I just like to watch others run instead. OpieOP

But yesterday I found my old Pearl cart with my DSi XL I haven't touched in years and thought "I wonder how I would compare against the leaderboards if I ran this."

So after getting LiveSplit, eontimer, and RNG Reporter and finding a Hasty seed that worked, I followed the Chim+Palkia route listed on the wiki: http://wiki.pokemonspeedruns.com/index. ... lkia_route . The issue was, a lot of the route was kinda left unexplained/unpolished/unfinished. It's a very rough outline and it cost me a lot of time on certain things.

In particular I remember finding items, hidden or not (Zinc, Revive/Max Revive, Rock Climb, Rare Candies, etc.) was impossible, money management seemed off, the Super/Max repels were lacking, the PP management was treacherous when you hit spinners, simple things like talking to Cynthia for Secretpotion weren't noted, and worst of all the actual route movement was not clearly defined. All in all this caused me to get massive time losses for someone unfamiliar with the game (like I said, I haven't played this game in years) :evil:

I still finished the game in 5:08 IGT with several resets (not single segment) but I REALLY want to fix this route for any aspiring runners or if I decide to break out of my shell and be a runner someday. Can I or someone else fix the route? Please?

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GarfieldTheLightning
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Re: Can someone (or I) edit the route?

Post by GarfieldTheLightning » Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:06 pm

I wrote that route in its entirety, and take full responsibility for any issues that may come up.

That said, the number of Super/Max Repels is definitely correct - you only need 5 of each from Veilstone to last you until the end of the game.

Money management should be correct, too:
At Sandgem Town, you have $3000, and spend $1200 on items.
At Oreburgh City, you have $4828, and spend $4550 on items.
At Eterna City, you have $9766, and spend $9250 on items.
At Veilstone City, you have $10360, sell items worth $14700 to raise that to $25060, and spend $24700 on items.

PP is pretty tight, yes. Ideally, though, you only use 1 Ether in the whole route if you don't hit any spinners - there are 3 pointed out in the route.

I take your point about the positions of certain items being unclear, and I'll work on taking some screenshots of some useful items.

Now, let me address a certain part of your post:
Kcrackatoa wrote:All in all this caused me to get massive time losses for someone unfamiliar with the game (like I said, I haven't played this game in years) :evil:
When I write a route up, I assume that the runner is familiar with the basic steps to go through the game. If the runner is not familiar, then they should be. You cannot get a decent time running a game without knowing it at least on a basic level. It is a pet peeve of mine to see people attempt to run a game who are clearly just stumbling through it, before blaming someone else on their lack of basic knowledge. If stumbling through blindly several times is your way of learning how to run the game, fine, but that's on you.

Sorry if that sounded mean, but I don't think a route should be a walkthrough.

EDIT: But by all means, if anything in the route implies that you should do something immediately after some event, without triggering another important event (like the Cynthia thing outside Lake Valor), that should be changed. It was more the comment about "actual route movement" that the above paragraph was directed at.
I speedrun Pokémon Pearl, White 2 and X!

Kcrackatoa
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Re: Can someone (or I) edit the route?

Post by Kcrackatoa » Tue Oct 14, 2014 3:53 am

I wasn't trying to sound accusatory; sorry if I came across that way Garfield. I also do apologize for the repels/money management. Guess that was my fault. My bad.

But from your response I now have a wall of questions that may annoy you to answer. You don't need to answer I just want to say what's on my mind.
When I write a route up, I assume that the runner is familiar with the basic steps to go through the game. If the runner is not familiar, then they should be. You cannot get a decent time running a game without knowing it at least on a basic level. It is a pet peeve of mine to see people attempt to run a game who are clearly just stumbling through it, before blaming someone else on their lack of basic knowledge. If stumbling through blindly several times is your way of learning how to run the game, fine, but that's on you.
It's not like people know the "basic steps to go through the game" on their first try through the game. If that route isn't for new/unfamiliar runners, do you actually expect the runner to have blindly speedran the game beforehand to get this so-called "basic knowledge"? The message I got reading this paragraph is "you should try stuff out yourself and look like a fool figuring out what to do and, once you're done, THEN follow the guidelines". That's like issuing a person a pop quiz and giving them study material for the quiz after they've taken it. I dunno, I feel like that's flawed logic. :|
Sorry if that sounded mean, but I don't think a route should be a walkthrough.
So what's the difference? Is a walkthrough just more specific than a route? I personally think then a route SHOULD be a walkthrough, if anything.
EDIT: But by all means, if anything in the route implies that you should do something immediately after some event, without triggering another important event (like the Cynthia thing outside Lake Valor), that should be changed. It was more the comment about "actual route movement" that the above paragraph was directed at.
The SecretPotion was the most important event trigger missing but here's a list of things I think the route needs fixing in:
  • Chimchar evolves and Monferno learns Mach Punch following the Grunt double battle in Jubilife and it should be written over Scratch (I rewrote it over Leer so... whoops).
  • Bibarel died in every double battle he was in. Literally all of them. I'm not sure if keeping Bibarel alive comes down to dumb luck but I found myself having no idea what to do when Bibarel died as the notes never addressed that problem.
  • I attacked Dustox first in the Grunt double battle in Veilstone because I had enough health but Dustox used Protect and Beautifly almost killed me with Aerial Ace. Fearing more Aerial Aces, I took out Beautifly before Dustox. Again, not sure if the notes accounted for this.
  • Before traveling to Snowpoint, I bought a lot of Hyper Potions that I never actually used so maybe specify a number of Hypers to buy?
  • I used the Full Restore from Galactic HQ on the Grunt Double battle at Spear Pillar because one of their pokemon (I don't remember which one) poisoned me and I was knocked to low health. I'd say the Full Restore is worth it as a safety strat in this scenario.
  • The Palkia I had was a -SpAtk nature (Careful) and, if I remember correctly, I could not one-shot Cynthia's Lucario with Surf the first time at +2 SpAtk, so I was forced to go to +3 the turn she healed to take care of the rest of the battle (Man my SpAtk was probably the worst).
I just want this to be constructive for the notes Garf. Sorry if I'm being a bother.

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GarfieldTheLightning
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Re: Can someone (or I) edit the route?

Post by GarfieldTheLightning » Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:30 am

Kcrackatoa wrote:It's not like people know the "basic steps to go through the game" on their first try through the game. If that route isn't for new/unfamiliar runners, do you actually expect the runner to have blindly speedran the game beforehand to get this so-called "basic knowledge"? The message I got reading this paragraph is "you should try stuff out yourself and look like a fool figuring out what to do and, once you're done, THEN follow the guidelines". That's like issuing a person a pop quiz and giving them study material for the quiz after they've taken it. I dunno, I feel like that's flawed logic. :|
Are there really people out there who want to speedrun a game who've never played it before? I'm not suggesting that your first speedrun should be blind, I just expect people to have played through the game casually at least once. Otherwise, how do they know that they'll enjoy running the game? If I'm missing an obvious motivation for speedrunning a game, let me know, but I always thought people ran a game because they enjoyed playing it.
So what's the difference? Is a walkthrough just more specific than a route? I personally think then a route SHOULD be a walkthrough, if anything.
Well, when you were talking about specific route movement, I figured that you expected the route to tell you how to get from Town A to Town B in every case. That's the kind of thing that I would expect people to already know. The route already warns you about spinners and helps you out with trickier bits of movement.
  • Chimchar evolves and Monferno learns Mach Punch following the Grunt double battle in Jubilife and it should be written over Scratch (I rewrote it over Leer so... whoops).
Thanks, that should be in the route.
  • Bibarel died in every double battle he was in. Literally all of them. I'm not sure if keeping Bibarel alive comes down to dumb luck but I found myself having no idea what to do when Bibarel died as the notes never addressed that problem.
Holy cow, you must have been pretty unlucky. Usually Bibarel survives if you use Defense Curl on every available turn. You want Bibarel to survive purely so that your other two lower-levelled Pokémon don't level up, so it's not massively important that it survives.
  • I attacked Dustox first in the Grunt double battle in Veilstone because I had enough health but Dustox used Protect and Beautifly almost killed me with Aerial Ace. Fearing more Aerial Aces, I took out Beautifly before Dustox. Again, not sure if the notes accounted for this.
It was Gust :P But that sounds like a good call on your part. If you take damage from Beautifly, you should be at the 44-70 HP range required for the recommended strats to work.
  • Before traveling to Snowpoint, I bought a lot of Hyper Potions that I never actually used so maybe specify a number of Hypers to buy?
It doesn't matter, since that's your last shop. Just buy the maximum to save time (or buy none if you're feeling confident - I don't think my PB actually needed any of the Hyper Potions I bought).
  • I used the Full Restore from Galactic HQ on the Grunt Double battle at Spear Pillar because one of their pokemon (I don't remember which one) poisoned me and I was knocked to low health. I'd say the Full Restore is worth it as a safety strat in this scenario.
Must've been Stunky. I wouldn't use my Full Restore there - you can use Bibarel's move to Heal Powder on the turn you KO Stunky, and Energy Root/Hyper Potion on the turn you KO Glameow. The Full Restore is more useful for Cyrus if his Crobat confuses you or Aaron if his Dustox poisons you.
  • The Palkia I had was a -SpAtk nature (Careful) and, if I remember correctly, I could not one-shot Cynthia's Lucario with Surf the first time at +2 SpAtk, so I was forced to go to +3 the turn she healed to take care of the rest of the battle (Man my SpAtk was probably the worst).
The only way that you could have failed to KO Lucario at +2 SpAtk is if you had a low SpAtk IV, a -SpAtk nature, were under the effect of Embargo and failed to hit the 15/16 damage range, leaving Lucario at 2 HP. After that turn, you should try again and hope you hit the range that's massively in your favour. Man, that's hideously unlucky...
I just want this to be constructive for the notes Garf. Sorry if I'm being a bother.
It sounds like a general problem with the notes is that it doesn't give reasons as to why you do certain things (like pick up the Full Restore), or what your goal should be (like get into Blaze from the Galactic double battle in Veilstone). I'm glad you brought this to my attention, and it's good to see interest in this game!
I speedrun Pokémon Pearl, White 2 and X!

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GarfieldTheLightning
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Re: Can someone (or I) edit the route?

Post by GarfieldTheLightning » Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:34 am

Which items do you think need pictures? I don't want to overload the article, but having written the route I'm not sure which items need the extra clarity. For now, I've uploaded one for the hidden Great Ball and one for the hidden Zinc, since those were in the places I found hardest to describe.

By the way, I don't have a problem with you (or anyone!) editing the route! Just be aware that if I notice an incorrect change, I'll revert it :P
I speedrun Pokémon Pearl, White 2 and X!

Kcrackatoa
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Re: Can someone (or I) edit the route?

Post by Kcrackatoa » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:15 pm

Well I think a screenshot or video (probably video) for maneuvering through the snow to get Rock Climb would be helpful. Off the top of my head I think that's the last thing I had trouble with for items.

Also, I added to teach Grass Knot *over Leer* and thank you for the permission :D

Last question: Why is there another route made by anirocks99 on a separate page of the wiki? (http://wiki.pokemonspeedruns.com/index. ... Glitchless) Lack of collaboration or something?

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GarfieldTheLightning
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Re: Can someone (or I) edit the route?

Post by GarfieldTheLightning » Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:31 pm

I went through my notes again, and was shocked to discover how unclear and inaccurate a lot of the battle information was! I'm not sure how I ever did runs with the info I had :P The wiki has been updated.
I speedrun Pokémon Pearl, White 2 and X!

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Sinstar
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Re: Can someone (or I) edit the route?

Post by Sinstar » Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:09 am

I'd suggest watching a video of a run before you attempt it, even for jut a fun casual run, that goes for pretty much any speedrun tbh.
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