Improved Lorelei fight for any% and FRR2 Mewtwo%

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Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:55 am

Improved Lorelei fight for any% and FRR2 Mewtwo%

Post by Sfayne » Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:09 pm

I've been rerouting FRR2 recently and while searching for new strats, I found an alternate Lorelei strat with Blasoise that also works for any% (it's actually even better for any% than it is for FRR2 Mewtwo%).
Since I'm not running that category, I felt that I might as well explain this strat here.

Basically, it involves buying Brick Break in the Celadon Mart and teach to Blastoise instead of Earthquake. The current Lorelei fight looks like this:

- XAttack *4 (sometimes 5, sometimes also an XSpeed)
- Strength + Strength on Dewgong
- Earthquake + Earthquake on Cloyster
- Strength + Earthquake on Slowbro
- Earthquake on Jinx
- Earthquake + Earthquake on Lapras

If you have Brick Break, it looks like this:

- XAttack *6 (sometimes also an XSpeed)
- Brick Break on Dewgong
- Brick Break on Cloyster
- Strength + Strength on Slowbro
- Strength on Jinx
- Brick Break on Lapras

Now let's assume the first strat uses 4 X Attacks and no X Speed and the second fight 6 X Attack and no X Speed. Here are the time saves and time lost using the second strat:
- Get 3700 extra money (depends on the route, would be around +6 seconds in any% getting an extra Nugget or Calcium + selling it and 2 TMs in FRR2 since you get every other money item already, so it's around +11 seconds for FRR2, note that it's only 3000 money but the 700 are affordable)
- Buy Brick Break and 2 extra X Attacks (+ 8 seconds)
- Teach Brick Break instead of Earthquake (+0 second)
- Use 2 extra X Items during the fight (+14 seconds)
- Kill Dewgong a turn faster ( -7 seconds)
- Kill Cloyster a turn faster ( -7 seconds)
- Cloyster uses around 1.5 less Protect (-9 seconds)
- Kill Lapras a turn faster ( -7 seconds)
- Kill Don't trigger Lapras Berry ( -2 seconds)
- Remove the chance to save time with a crit on Dewgong or Lapras, Cloysters ability blocking them ayways (15%*7 + 15%*9 - crit text --> +2 seconds)
- Get 3 "It's super effective!" texts (+2 seconds)

And the biggest timesave:
- Lorelei most likely only uses Hail once in the fight instead of twice (-19 seconds)
It looks like this is debatable, but the only way Dewgong uses Hail twice would be if it used Hail turn 1 and uses Hail again directly when it stops. It's really unlikely to happen, espacially because Dewgong generally uses Safeguard before Hail and Dewgong often chooses to use a damaging move rather than Hail.
Be aware that you might to give Dewgong an extra turn if you have to heal (involving one or multiple crits from Dewgong) or if you have to use an XSpeed, which I didn't really consider while routing because RNG manip is now a thing and if you use it, you should always have enough Speed (I'll do a post about how RNG manip works soon by the way, it's basically the same thing Roushmore is doing in Emerald). Even with an extra turn you would have to be unlucky. I've tried this strat about 20 times, and I never got double Hail.
Let's say there is a 5% chance that the fight goes wrong and Lorelei uses Hail twice anyways:
- 5% chance to not save the 19 seconds: (5%*19 = +1 second)

Since you don't have Earthquake later in FRR2 for Sevii Islands, it also changes 2 fights:
- Loses the 50% chance to save a turn on the double Hypno fight if the first one uses Swagger (8*50% = +4 secs)
- Change the Girl Rocket Admin fight : X Attack + 5 turn fight with a damage range becomes X Special + 5 turns with a chance to miss Blizzard (not gonna explain the whole fight, but it's in average 2 seconds faster, not having to forget Blizzard because you can forget Brick Break for Waterfall actually makes this fight faster)

In the end, compared to the actual strat, this Brick Break strat is, in average:
- 18 seconds faster in any% (also get 1300 extra money)
- 11 seconds faster in FRR2 Mewtwo% (need to spare 700 money, you can potentially sell Earthquake later)

You also end the fight with a higher health amount, which might save or waste time depending on the situation

Also, I don't know any% route perfectly, but I know you use more Rare candies on Blastoise, which might make you skip an extra X Attack and save another 7 seconds. The tankiest Pokémon in Lorelei's Party being Cloyster, I'll never be able to have a guaranteed OHKO on him in FRR2 since Blastoise is only level 51, even with 31 Attack Iv (68% chance to Ohko at best). You need 113 Attack to OHKO it, which is reachable depending on your IV if you're level 53 or higher. You might as well consider using only 5 X Attacks even if it's still a damage range as long as it's a really favorable one (94% or 87% for example).

One last thing: be careful about Slowbro's healing range, because Strenght might put him really close to it, especially since Hail might do 11 extra damage. I don't remember what health percentage the AI exactly needs to be in healing range in gen3 (25% perhaps?), so I couldn't try it, but if someone know please tell me. Using Brick Break + Strength might work.

If you guys want to try things on a gen3 damage calculator (don't forget the Attack badge boost):
Cloyster has 127 HP and 203 Def
Slowbro has 176 HP and 135 Def (Hail does 11)
Blastoise has 44 Attack EV at this stage in FRR2 (should be 43 in any% I think?)
Blastoise should be level 51 at this stage in FRR2, no clue for any%

If I forgot something that wastes a but of extra time, or if I didn't think about something that should save even more (using Brick Break somewhere else?), please tell me.

Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:55 am

Re: Improved Lorelei fight for any% and FRR2 Mewtwo%

Post by Sfayne » Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:07 pm

I just did some tests, and Lorelei uses a Healing item if Slowbro's HP is 43 or less. It appears that you can't avoid Lorelei healing with a 100% consistency, but you can be really close to it. I came up with what was the best choice between using Strength two times (risking the healing from Lorelei) or going for Brick Break first, then Strength (risking to not kill the Slowbro). Here's what I got, for those who are crazy enough to use it:


You need to know your Attack IV so obviously it's easier to use if you RNG manipulated your Squirtle (that's also why I didn't consider 17- Attack because you should always look for at least 18 Attack if you use RNG Manipulation). The 0 Hail situation, that has a 100% way to deal with Slowbro, is by far the most common, since you'll often kill Cloyster on the turn it tries to Hail instead of using Protect.

Hail turns represents the number of turns Hail is going to still be there (counting the one that occurs when Slowbro arrives). For example, if Hail is up and occured 3 times, there's 2 Hail turn left.

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Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:39 pm

Re: Improved Lorelei fight for any% and FRR2 Mewtwo%

Post by JP_Xinnam » Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:06 pm

Looks good. You can even sell Shock Wave in Any% (1500) to help get extra money.

Code: Select all

Any% Money at Celadon buy: 19134 + 10000 (Nugget) = 29134 available money

4000 = 8 Super Repel
8750 = 25 X Special
4750 = 5 X Accuracy
1400 = 2 Guard Spec
1750 = 5 X Speed (assuming 10 Speed at L5, need 7 otherwise?)
3000 = 6 X Attack
3000 = TM31

26650 = Total Celadon Buy.
Too bad in order to get Brick Break from S.S. Anne you've got to fight a trainer.


Just for reference, with neutral minimum IV Attack (4), Cloyster is a 62.50% chance to one shot, according to Route 3. The lowest IV at neutral nature that can one shot is 16. Any% has me at level 51 then, which gives me 103 attack, and then the badge boost gets me to 113. Maybe you weren't including Badge Boosts?

Slowbro should never heal with 2x strength at 16 IV, as well.

Edit 2: I'm bad at math.

Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:55 am

Re: Improved Lorelei fight for any% and FRR2 Mewtwo%

Post by Sfayne » Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:56 am


I was doing routing to try to optimize some fights, and I found little improvements for the Lorelei fight, so I thought I might as well post them here since there's a thread already.

First one, really simple:
If Dewgong DOESN'T use Hail turn 1 or turn 2, Brick Break Dewgong after you used 4 X Attacks instead of waiting for all 6 of them. Then, finish setting up your X Attacks against Cloyster. Cloyster will use Spike or Protect, which are faster moves than Surf or Ice Beam while you're setting up, so you save a bit of time and HP here. That also gives you a chance that Cloyster misses Protect on your first Brick Break if he uses it one turn before.
You can't really do that if Dewgong used Hail turn 1 or 2, because if you do you'll give Cloyster an extra chance to use a second Hail, wasting 19 seconds.

Second improvement, a bit trickier:
You can only do this if:
- Dewgong used Hail turn 1 or 2
- You just setup your 5th X Attack (only one left to go)
- Your HP is lower or equal than shown in this chart:

If those conditions are met, use Brick Break on Dewgong rather than setting up your last X Attack. Then, here's the trick: because your HP is that low, Cloyster will ALWAYS use Dive (and never Hail even if it technically kills). Use an Hyper potion: Cloyster will go underwater. Use the last X Attack during the attacking turn, and use Brick Break to kill it afterwards. You could technically switch the X Attack and Hyper Potion turn, but I prefer using the Hyper Potion first since losing a bit of HP is usefull for the next fight because of Torrent.
The Hail either already finished or did it last damaging turn right before you kill Dewgong, so don't worry about Hail damage at all.

The main point of this strat is to give Lorelei no chance of using Hail a second time in a situation where she would have had 2 turns to. You also usually finish the fight without any need to heal for Bruno which is nice.
You'll usually only be able to do this strat with a Rash (minus Sp.Def) nature, since Dewgong shouldn't do enough damage to put you on such a low health if you're Mild (would require 2 crits or something).
Also note that I talked about Mild and Rash but you can replace Mild by any Neutral Sp.Def nature and Rash by any minus Sp.Def nature


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