Move Switching

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Amoeba
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Move Switching

Post by Amoeba » Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:59 pm

Something I've been thinking about for a bit (and hesitant to impliment because of muscle memory) is switching the order of moves around, ideally to remove some inputs, mostly from selecting slot 4 moves. From initial thoughts, I was thinking of 3 switches like so:

Swap Water Gun to 1 in 2nd youngster battle

Water Gun | Rock Tomb
Mud Slap | Tackle

Swap Mud Shot (3) with Water Gun (1) and Rock Tomb (2) with Tackle (4) in 2nd museum battle

Mud Shot | Tackle/Strength
Water Gun/Surf | Rock Tomb

Swap Strength with Mud Shot on Shelly's Mightyena

Strength | Mud Shot
Surf | Rock Tomb/Dive

Presuming that a runner's execution is similar for choosing moves and swapping moves, we can compare these by assuming that movement is perfect, so 1 input = 1 frame. (it might be 2, but for comparison it doesn't matter).
For the first move, switching WG to 1st slot, then using it is a 5 frame input (right, down, select, select, A). If you don't switch, every time you select WG it takes 3 frames (right, down, A). So, if you have to move to select WG more than twice after a potential move, switching the order around is faster. As we need to WG for the 2nd gym youngster, Roxanne, Hiker Clark and most encounters that we kill, I think that switch is worth it.
The following 2 switches are based more upon move usage. The 2nd is because MS is heavily used from when you get it up to Norman, with Strength and WG/Surf being used slightly less frequently, and RS basically never. The 3rd switch follows similar logic.

Looking for critique on theses, they may be slower than I think due to teaching new moves, or how often we switch between moves.
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werster
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Re: Move Switching

Post by werster » Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:53 am

Personally, I find the difference between selecting a Slot 2/3 vs 4 almost negligible. The main difference comes from not being able to Mash A vs moving to make sure the directional input applies in between the two.

This is a point that I believe is exaggerated even more on move teaching. Removing slot 1 is much faster than the others. I'd be using a draft table starting with numbers like

Moves: Slot 1: +0 | Slot 2/3: +10 | Slot 4: +12
Teaching: Slot 1: +0 | Slot 2: +15 | Slot 3/4: +21
Swapping to slot 1: From 2/3: +30 | Slot 4: +32

And work from there. Those numbers are pretty rough, but it'd be a pain in the ass to find your average time spent on each thing, I think those are pretty close

edit: I think switching Mud Slap to slot 1 on first Museum Grunt (for Water Gun), and then switching Water Gun back to slot 1 on Hiker after Wattson seems faster to me. You lead with Surf a fair bit, Mud Shot not so much after Wattson (lead Water Gun more, a lot more if no Sunny day turn 1 from Flannery) and that allows for lots of slot 1 move overwrites.

Maybe keep Tackle in slot 1 until you teach Strength, and move Water Gun to slot 1 against trainer after that? Strength in 4 is a bit of an ass, but like I said it's not a big deal as you imagine it to be in your head
edit 2: This makes no sense as then Tackle would just be in slot 3 where you took Mud Slap from. Oops.

edit 3: I also believe it would be faster to swap extremespeed to slot 1 as you kill Luvdisc, and put AA in slot 1.

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Re: Move Switching

Post by Amoeba » Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:21 pm

The negligible difference between 2/3 and 4 makes a lot of sense, thinking about it, so I guess its better to concentrate on getting the most used move to slot 1 where possible. Putting WG back to 1 after Wattson also makes sense to me, though its possible that having Strength or MS in 1 for Brawly+Norman is faster. Looking at my original plan, I think I was wrong with what moves are used the most, Surf certainly wants to be slot 1 after Norman, and I always think MS is really key just because we elixer to boost it (when really the elixer helps on Strength PP too).
Working from your points, how about:

Move 1: Water Gun with Tackle, in Youngster battle (WG, Growl/RT, MS, Tackle)
Move 2: Mud Slap with Water Gun, in Museum 1 (MSlap/MShot, RT, WG, Tackle)
Move 3: Mud Shot with Tackle, Rock Tomb with Mud Shot, in Hiker-after-Wattson (Tackle/Strength, MS, WG, RT)
Move 4: Strength with Water Gun, in Hiker-before-Meteor-Falls (WG/Surf, MS, S, RT)

The moves are slightly weird, but they allow for slot 1 move teaches for every move you need to learn (MS in Museum 2 battle, Strength in tunnel after Wattson, Surf after Norman). Could skip the 2nd part of move 3, if you're fine with MS being in slot 4, annoying but not that big a deal as you said.

And I agree with the ray switch, AA in 1 makes sense, and will save even more time with +atk natures especially.
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werster
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Re: Move Switching

Post by werster » Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:24 pm

Close to what I was thinking. I was along the lines of

1/2, same as you.

Move 3: Water Gun with Mud Shot, Tackle with Rock Tomb, in Hiker after Wattson (WG/Surf, Tackle/Strength, MS, RT)

Saves one switch, so roughly 30f, but Strength taught into slot 2 (16) and used from slot 2 against Rose (10), so just faster based on my initial projections

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Amoeba
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Re: Move Switching

Post by Amoeba » Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:18 pm

Ahh, I like that too. Possible that one could be faster than the other depending on what movement you're more confident with, but at least we have a better set of moves now.
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werster
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Re: Move Switching

Post by werster » Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:54 am

Actually, I think yours is better if you skip the second part of Move 3. Mud shot being in slot 4 is not a big deal, especially since it's used a lot in conjunction with Strength (Mud Shot, then Strength) when it is used. And if you do keep Rock Tomb, dive goes in Slot 2, which is better also

edit: Just realised Rock Smash would be to Slot 2 anyway, which is also time save <_< So works either way

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Re: Move Switching

Post by Exarion » Sun Dec 20, 2015 4:31 am

Finally got around to routing move order today. I basically came up with the same thing you guys did. Only difference is I'd like to keep Strength in slot 1 from Rival 3 to Tabitha 2, since I lead with Strength on nearly every fight there, and I use a Leppa on Strength on the menu before Winona. So rather than doing two swaps (Surf to 1, then Strength to 1), I just keep Strength in 1 for the entire game.

Swap #1: WG to slot 1, second Rustboro Youngster (WG, Growl, MS, Tackle)
Swap #2: MS to slot 1, first Museum Grunt (MS, RT, WG, Tackle)
Swap #3: Tackle to slot 1, Rusturf Tunnel Hiker (Tackle, RS, WG, MS)

(Final attacking moveset is Strength, Rock Smash, Surf, Mud Shot)

Frame data (rough estimates based on a bit of practice)
Using
6 frames for slot 2/3
8 frames for slot 4
Teaching
13 frames for slot 2
26 frames for slot 3/4
Swapping
24 frames for Select-Select
32 frames for directional-Select-Select

Frames saved from swap-less strats: 50
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/exarionu
Pokemon Red speedrunning guide: http://pastebin.com/CkVA5yvJ

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