Persim Berry-less route

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Exarion
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Persim Berry-less route

Post by Exarion » Thu Apr 16, 2015 3:12 am

I looked into skipping Persim Berries entirely today, and the results were encouraging. I'll post some of my routing and calculations here, and I'm interested to hear what others think.

TIMINGS

Movement
- Get Petalburg Woods Ether: 4.5 seconds
- Get 6 Persim Berries: 18 seconds
- YOLO eight grass tiles on Route 114: 5 seconds on average

Menuing
- Route 114 Repel: 5 seconds
- Buy X Attacks in Mossdeep: 3 seconds
- Teach Aerial Ace: 15 seconds
- Use Ether on Outrage: 4 seconds
- Equip Persims:
> Juan: 4 seconds
> Wally: 3.5 seconds
> Phoebe: 6.5 seconds
> Glacia: 6.5 seconds
> Drake: 6.5 seconds
> Champion: 6 seconds

Battles
- Outrage confusion text: 2 seconds
- Persim cure text: 2 seconds
- Reselecting a move: 0.3 seconds

DAMAGE RANGES

(numbers listed guarantee OHKO)

EXTREMESPEED
Whiscash: 220 Atk

AERIAL ACE
Altaria: 229
Claydol: 208
Sandslash: 240
Pelipper: 204
+1 Dusclops: 208
+1 Dusclops: 233
+1 Glalie: 203
+1 Sealeo: 209
+1 Shelgon: 234
+1 Altaria: 249
+1 Flygon: 245
+1 Wailord: 259
+1 Milotic: 254
+1 Gyarados: 264

FLY
+1 Dusclops: 200
+1 Walrein: 255
+1 Wailord: 223
+1 Milotic: 218

BATTLES

Trainer: Sequence of moves (Remaining PP) | Estimated time loss/save

Juan: ES, Outrage, Outrage, Heal Powder, ES, Outrage (15/x/4/13) | lose 7 seconds
---Teach AA over Extremespeed in Waterfall menu---
Wally: AA, Waterfall, Waterfall, Outrage, Outrage (15/13/19/12) | save 3 seconds
Hope: Outrage (15/13/19/11)
Shannon: Outrage (15/13/19/10)
Julie: Waterfall, Outrage, Outrage (15/12/19/9)
Edgar: Outrage, Outrage, (AA) (15/12/18/7)
Sidney: Waterfall, Waterfall, AA, Outrage, Outrage (15/9/17/6) | save 1 second
Phoebe: X Attack, AA, AA, AA, Outrage, Outrage (15/9/10/5) | lose 1 second
Glacia: X Attack x2, AA, AA, AA, AA, AA (15/9/5/5) | lose 7 seconds
Drake: X Attack x2, AA, AA, AA, Outrage, Outrage (15/9/2/4) | lose 9 seconds
---Heal before Champion (lose about 5 seconds on average)---
Champion: X Attack, Fly, AA, Fly, (Hyper Potion), X Special, Outrage, Outrage, Outrage (13/9/1/2) | lose 6 seconds

Total time loss from fights: 31 seconds

MONEY MANAGEMENT

Need 3-4 more X Attacks and 2 fewer X Specials ($800-1300 more). This saves $700 at the Fallarbor Mart, and you'd buy more X Attacks in Mossdeep.

You could also save $350 in Slateport by buying 4 Repels, since the average time loss from encounters on Route 114 is about the same as the time loss from using a Repel and seeing it wear off.

FINAL CALCULATIONS

MONEY
Slateport: Save $350 unless no flier
Fallarbor: Save $700
Total: Save $1050

TIME
Movement: Save 17.5 seconds
Menuing: Save 24 seconds
Time loss from fights: Lose 31 seconds
Total: Save 10.5 seconds

COMPLICATIONS

A Rayquaza with bad Attack is slightly worse for this route than a Rayquaza with bad Sp. Attack is for the 6 Persims route. You'd have to risk damage ranges or use Fly, which is slow and can miss. However, a Rayquaza with great Attack is slighly better for this route than a Rayquaza with great Sp. Attack is for the 6 Persims route.

You also might want to buy Full Restores more often, like if your Attack isn't good enough for Drake (just Outrage until confused, then Full Restore, then Outrage). Buying Full Restores takes 10 seconds.

----

EDITS:
- Added 4 seconds of time loss to Juan fight (4/16)
- Added 4 seconds of time loss to Drake fight (4/16)
- Corrected first Dusclops AA threshold to 208 (4/17)
- Subtracted 4 seconds of time loss from Wally fight (4/17)
- Added 5 seconds of time loss to healing before Champion (4/17)
- Subtracted 1 second of time loss from Glacia fight (4/17)
- Added second X Attack to Glacia and Drake fights (4/17)
- Fixed PP management (4/17)
Last edited by Exarion on Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:05 am, edited 5 times in total.
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werster
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Re: Persim Berry-less route

Post by werster » Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:42 am

I like it if for nothing else than not having to setup twice on Wailord, that's cost me too much time in the past. Only question since I don't have a state close, what does Glacia use on turn 2 with Sealeo? I'm guessing Ice Ball, how much does that hurt?

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but can't Shelgon use Rock Tomb and make you slower than the back 3? Not too keen on that. If possible I think the best play would be to have low health to manip Dragon Claw, and just Outrage (Full Restore), Outrage, especially since that Attack threshold seems really high.

Also could 2 X Att and then all AA on Glacia be a better play if you have the attack for it? (223 I think) Less scrolling in menus would make up for the choosing one attack less.

So maybe on Glacia go: X Att: AA, AA, AA, AA, X Att (Take Ice beam into low health): AA

On low SP Def you could do it on the second Sealeo for Blizzard, since a miss would be slightly faster to avoid all the health drops/gains vs 1 Protect turn (though slower than 2, odds are on 1 tho)

Edit: How on Earth are you doing the movement on Route 114? I can't for the life of me find a path that has -9- tiles of grass, especially while avoiding Nancy's range. The one I'm looking at atm goes through 13, so I'd still use the Repel with a Flier (tradeoff seems about equal if not better to do that anyway)

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Re: Persim Berry-less route

Post by Exarion » Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:55 pm

Glacia seems to always use Ice Ball on turn 2 (and sometimes on turn 1, in which case it would use it again on turn 2 for the double power). It does about 50 and then 100.

Rock Tomb from Shelgon is rare but wastes a ton of time. You'd probably want a backup X Speed if using the X Attack strat. I like the HP manip for Dragon Claw, except that there's no good turn to use the Full Restore (Flygon can paralyze with Dragonbreath, and Salamence does ~90 dmg with Dragon Claw, forcing another heal before Champion). Also, if you take only Ice Ball damage, you can often use a Potion before Champion to manipulate Double-Edge from Wailord on turn 2. This lowers the Aerial Ace threshold and prevents a heal on Gyarados. So I'm thinking X Attack with decent Attack and HP manip without it.

Double X Attack on Glacia is definitely better. Probably good to keep an extra X Special in case you don't have the Attack for it.

On Route 114, I was passing through eight tiles, but the first one (jumping the ledge from the left) also had a turn frame, so it was essentially nine. But that movement is way too difficult to do consistently, so buying a Repel with a flier seems better.

Not entirely sold on Persim Berry-less yet; it seems that -Attack natures are doomed with it, whereas -Sp. Atk natures with Persim strats can hold their own. I'll keep working on it. If nothing else, the X Attack on Champion strat can be used with bad Sp. Atk Rayquazas to avoid the Milotic range and save a Persim for Sidney.
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Re: Persim Berry-less route

Post by Amoeba » Fri Apr 17, 2015 1:23 pm

How would the time save/loss look if you were to pick up 2 Persims, and do standard strats for Glacia and Drake? I don't have all the timings nor good save states to test, but I'm relatively sure that picking up and menuing to attach one set of berries would be faster than losing 3-4 turns. (potentially more if you get trolled obviously, but that's only a 1/8 chance on Drake, and again if you go x specless on Glacia).
Bear in mind we could attach the Glacia persim in any of the menus leading up to victory road, so that's not a full menu timeloss.
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Re: Persim Berry-less route

Post by Exarion » Fri Apr 17, 2015 9:49 pm

Time to pick up 2 Persims: 7 seconds
Time to equip 2 Persims: 10.5 seconds

Estimated time loss on Glacia: 7 seconds
Estimated time loss on Drake: 9 seconds
Estimated time loss from healing: 5 seconds

I like it. Having two Persims is also nice as a backup for severe Spinda trolling / running out of Heal Powders before Juan.

EDIT: The first Persim could also be used for Phoebe with bad Attack. The extra turn on Glacia wouldn't be too bad; Hail + Ice Ball often puts Rayquaza into range to draw Double-Edge from Wailord. You would need an extra X Special for this, however.
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Re: Persim Berry-less route

Post by Amoeba » Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:25 pm

Cool. So, if I'm understanding the original post correctly, 233 attack @71 guarantees everything, with 223 guaranteed with backup persim on phoebe? IV calcs says this is any +nature or 8+ neutral. Basically unless you've got -atk natures you should be fine, but good fucking luck if you do get that modest.
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Re: Persim Berry-less route

Post by Exarion » Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:37 pm

Yeah, minus Attack still sucks; you basically lose 3 turns regardless of your distribution of Persims. Plus Attack saves some time, but not quite that much (unless it's a really high IV, which allows X Atk, AA x3, X Atk, AA x3 on Champion).
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werster
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Re: Persim Berry-less route

Post by werster » Sat Apr 18, 2015 12:09 am

Did some timing myself, and I think your est time loss (espeically on Drake) is way off.

Note: These all start from the first battle menu on the first Pokemon, and end when the 5th Pokemon falls off the screen

Glacia:

2 X Att (Hail, Ice Ball): 5 AAs - 1:19.5
X Att (Hail): AA + AA + AA + AA + X Att (Ice Beam): AA - 1:22
X Att (Hail): AA + AA + X Att (Blizzard miss): AA + AA + AA - 1:18
X Att (Hail): AA + AA + AA + AA + Fly - 1:18.6
2 X Att (2 Ice Ball): 5 AAs - 1:13
X Att (Ice Ball): AA + AA + AA + AA + Fly - 1:11.3
X Att (Ice Ball): AA + AA + AA + X Att (Hail): AA + AA - 1:14

X Spec (Hail): Outrage + Outrage (assume 3-2) - 1:17
X Spec (Ice Ball): Outrage + Outrage (assume 3-2) - 1:09.3
Outrage + X Spec (Hail): Outrage (assume 2-3) - 1:13.3
Outrage + X Spec (Hail): Outrage (assume 3-2) - 1:11.5
Outrage + X Spec (Blizzard/Ice Beam): Outrage (assume 3-2) - 1:11.3
Outrage + Outrage (assume 3-2 OHKO) - 1:01

(An attacking missing: Save 1.6 seconds for Ice Ball, 4 seconds for Blizzard)
(Assuming 2-2 and then through: Add 3.2 seconds)

Drake:

2 X Att (Protect, Protect): AA + AA + AA + Outrage - 1:23.8
X Att (Protect): AA + AA + AA + Outrage - 1:17.8
(HP Manip): Outrage + Full Restore + Outrage (assume 3-2) - 1:25

Outrage + Outrage (assume 3-2) - 1:19.5
(HP Manip): Outrage + Outrage (assume 3-2) - 1:13.6

(If hit by Rock Tomb and have to X Spd: Add 12 seconds)
(Assuming 2-2 and then through: Add 3.2 seconds)

Picking 2 Persim Berries: 6.8 secs
Equipping Persim #1: 4.8 secs
Equipping Persim #2: 6.8 secs

(this includes going back to the bag menu where the X Items are)

Imo, does not seem worth it, especially when you factor in the dangers of going 2-2-hurt self, and that you can potentially not have to heal off 1 Ice Ball with good Sp Def. The only way going back to Special for these 2 fights seems worth it is if you go without the X Spec on Glacia and just OHKO Walrein, which is super risky especially since you'd have to commit to Persims before you get there

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Re: Persim Berry-less route

Post by Exarion » Sat Apr 18, 2015 12:25 am

I added some extra time loss to Drake because Rock Tomb hits and paralysis can waste a ton of time, and they aren't preventable.

Also, did you time the 2 X Attack strat on Drake with a third Protect? Shelgon should be 75% likely to use it on each of the first three turns.

Juan is another fight that would benefit from a Persim (save ~7 seconds on average, though it's tough to measure the value of confusion damage).
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werster
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Re: Persim Berry-less route

Post by werster » Sat Apr 18, 2015 12:46 am

Unless HP Manip I assumed Protect every turn for Drake, so yes.

I don't have a state near Juan, but without any actual testing I would imagine Heal Powder = 7 secs, Persim cure = ~2, yolo Outrage on Crawdaunt without heal = 2 secs, so the Persim should only save 5 seconds there?

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Re: Persim Berry-less route

Post by Exarion » Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:53 am

werster wrote:Unless HP Manip I assumed Protect every turn for Drake, so yes.

I don't have a state near Juan, but without any actual testing I would imagine Heal Powder = 7 secs, Persim cure = ~2, yolo Outrage on Crawdaunt without heal = 2 secs, so the Persim should only save 5 seconds there?
My timings for Juan:

With Persim: 1:22
No Persim + 2-turn Outrage: 1:30
No Persim + 3-turn Outrage + fight through: 1:22
No Persim + 3-turn Outrage + hurt self x1: 1:29
No Persim + 3-turn Outrage + hurt self x2: 1:36
No Persim + 3-turn Outrage + hurt self x3: 1:43
No Persim + 3-turn Outrage + hurt self x4: 1:50

(0.5*90)+(0.25*82)+(0.25*93) = 88.75

So about 6.75 seconds slower on average, but you might lose more time if you get Amnesia and don't kill Whiscash with Extremespeed, or if you have to heal off confusion damage that you otherwise wouldn't.
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Re: Persim Berry-less route

Post by Amoeba » Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:55 am

werster wrote: X Att (Protect): AA + AA + AA + Outrage - 1:17.8
Outrage + Outrage (assume 3-2) - 1:19.5
3 SE texts are nearly 2 seconds slower than an entire turn that uses an item in it? God Damn.
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Re: Persim Berry-less route

Post by Exarion » Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:15 am

Amoeba wrote:
werster wrote: X Att (Protect): AA + AA + AA + Outrage - 1:17.8
Outrage + Outrage (assume 3-2) - 1:19.5
3 SE texts are nearly 2 seconds slower than an entire turn that uses an item in it? God Damn.
Three SE texts plus 2 confusion-related texts:

"It's super effective!"
"It's super effective!"
"It's super effective!"
"A became confused due to fatigue!"
"A's Persim Berry snapped it out of its confusion!"
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werster
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Re: Persim Berry-less route

Post by werster » Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:41 am

Exarion: Yeah you're right, Heal Powder takes a lot longer than I thought, I didn't account for the fact you have to choose the Pokemon with an item, rather than a Battle Item just being used. So about 7 seconds seems right there. Maybe combine that with one of Glacia/Drake and play it by ear?

Given you could equip Persim before Juan, both equips would be only 4.8 and 4 = 8.8 + 6.8 for pickup = 15.6 - Juan 7 = 8.6 need to be saved

Perfect Sp Att: Glacia: Outrage + Outrage (save ~18 generally if it comes off) | Also maybe 5-7 from heal
249 Att: Glacia: Outrage + X Spec + Outrage (save ~6 generally) | Also maybe 5-7 from heal [1 X Att on Drake]
Nothing: Glacia: HP Manip w/ X Att | Drake: Outrage + Outrage (lose 2, save ~10 generally) | Always big heal. No chance of Rock Tomb

Outrage is 100% on Walrein with 267 Sp Att (IV 29+, with +nature) 50% at 244 Sp Att (IV 30+ neutral)

It's marginal to me imo, probably depends on how scared you are of Rock Tomb.

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