Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Exarion
Cooltrainer
Posts: 249
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:07 am

Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by Exarion » Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:06 pm

I never try to get Marshtomp on Route 116. I always try to get 183 experience to get Marshtomp for the second Aqua battle in the museum, and with good Attack, this is all you need to smoothly get through Norman's gym. With bad Attack, a total of 295 experience makes Norman's gym much easier because you can candy to Lv. 30 before Brawly.
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/exarionu
Pokemon Red speedrunning guide: http://pastebin.com/CkVA5yvJ

User avatar
RXFADEZ
Pokémon Trainer
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:32 pm
Contact:

Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by RXFADEZ » Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:14 pm

Ah I see. I believe I misread your original post (blaming it on having just woken up) and I see that it requires a certain attack stat. If you have a large number of 116 encounters, is it faster to kill them and evolve early to have a smoother Museum or to run away and evolve after second fight? I think it's probably faster to run away, but safer to kill (Rock Tomb misses all day), but if you skip teaching Rock Tomb and sell it then I think it's probably close to say which is faster.

EDIT: Just thought I should be clear that I'm not suggesting getting more encounters in 116 than needed, just killing the ones you get.

User avatar
Amoeba
Cooltrainer
Posts: 280
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:26 am
Contact:

Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by Amoeba » Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:04 pm

Lol Fadez, the reason the strat on Flannery is done is because Exarion came up with it, same for the 2nd X attack on Slaking strat. Also the current route has you get 3 potions not 5, 1 pc, 2 at petalburg. Occasionally you'll want to pick up the beach one if you used all 3 before roxanne but that's really it. Never 5. Finally the Strength on Slugma is to skip the SE text as well, though you shouldn't risk it on anything other than +atk natures.

In regards to your post Exa, I personally don't think you need more than 1 extra potion for the torrent strats. I could see where you would use a 2nd potentially, if you don't outspeed the golbat, but that's really it. Though if you did want to buy more pots you can get an extra super pot in the fallabor trip without sacrificing any other items.
~

User avatar
RXFADEZ
Pokémon Trainer
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:32 pm
Contact:

Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by RXFADEZ » Sun Sep 06, 2015 2:43 pm

I was unaware that about the Flannery strat's origins. I only knew that I was fed up of Numel consistently using Sunny Day so set up later. Again, the Slaking strat I only knew about because of your Wiki post with no clue of origins. Lastly, I could not tell you Petalburg shop if I tried, it's become 100% muscle memory to me.

Exarion
Cooltrainer
Posts: 249
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:07 am

Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by Exarion » Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:12 am

Did a practice run yesterday with 183 experience and good Attack, and I think it works better as a backup strat (i.e., you got all your slaves without finding enough stuff to kill). Lv. 29 for Vigoroth is just too inconsistent, and having less HP/Defense makes Norman's gym riskier as well.

Also, I finally got around to practicing Rock Smash slave-less, and it seems to be a free time save with good Sp. Atk (x/26/7+). Potentially a huge time save if you leave Route 116 without a slave. T&L can be awkward when you enter at high HP and/or good Defense, but if you have the proper HP or get decent luck with EQ+EQ+AP, the fight is 10-15 seconds faster than the standard fast strat.
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/exarionu
Pokemon Red speedrunning guide: http://pastebin.com/CkVA5yvJ

User avatar
RXFADEZ
Pokémon Trainer
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:32 pm
Contact:

Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by RXFADEZ » Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:22 am

Is it still faster to pick up the slave if you see one? Occasionally I pick up a Pooch and then teach Marshtomp Rock Smash anyway, but that's just because I know the old strats and sometimes prefer to manip torrent on Slaking (if I don't get Façade crit)

Exarion
Cooltrainer
Posts: 249
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:07 am

Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by Exarion » Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:11 pm

My notes say:
- Don't catch a Rock Smash slave with x/26/7+ IV Sp. Atk (unless you have bad Attack AND it's a Lv. 7)

Bad Attack makes Tabitha's Lv. 22 Zubat enough of a range with Strength that it's a better play to Rock Tomb, and it makes the Gyarados before Mossdeep nearly impossible to 3-hit with Strength. Lv. 7 is obviously used for Repel strats.

I didn't find much use for Rock Smash in Norman's gym. Torrent manip is nice in some situations, but super-effective text + the potential Defense drop animation + text is horribly slow. I'd rather have Rock Tomb for Winona's gym and Gyarados.
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/exarionu
Pokemon Red speedrunning guide: http://pastebin.com/CkVA5yvJ

User avatar
RXFADEZ
Pokémon Trainer
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:32 pm
Contact:

Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by RXFADEZ » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:12 pm

Okay I've been doing some tests with a safer Aqua Pooch (more commonly referred to as Sand-Attack bitch) strat. It appears that if you successfully get off two Mud-Slaps then the Poochyena more often uses Howl as opposed to Tackle or Sand Attack. It also gives a higher chance that if it does use Tackle/SandAttack it misses. Now the increased use of Howl may be just lucky RNG or confirmation bias on my end but here's roughly what my results chalked up to.

If after two Mud Slaps, Poochyena has landed a SandAttack 1+ times - Poochyena has about a 25% chance to Howl turn three, then a 75% chance for the remaining turns.

If after two Mud Slaps, Poochyena has dealt damage, but has not sand attacked - Poochyena has about a 40% chance to Howl turn three, then an 80% chance for the remaining turns.

If after two Mud Slaps, Poochyena has dealt damage and landed a Sand Attack - Poochyena has about a 10% chance to Howl turn one, then a 50% chance to Howl the remaining turns.

This is using very rough numbers and I 100% guarantee that they're not accurate. If anyone with more knowledge of Trainer AI would like to step in and tell me if my results were just lucky or the chance of Howl does increase after accuracy drops that would be great.

Thanks

Exarion
Cooltrainer
Posts: 249
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:07 am

Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by Exarion » Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:15 pm

My experience with Aqua/Magma grunts has been that they have no AI (i.e., choose a move at random), but I can't say for sure. I'd love to know more about trainer AI in general.

In this case, I'd probably opt for Tackle x5 over Mud-Slap x2, Tackle x4 because both Mud-Slap and Howl have slow animations. The one exception: running 0-2 IV +Attack, which requires either Tackle x7 or Mud-Slap x3, Tackle x4.
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/exarionu
Pokemon Red speedrunning guide: http://pastebin.com/CkVA5yvJ

User avatar
RXFADEZ
Pokémon Trainer
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:32 pm
Contact:

Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by RXFADEZ » Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:11 am

Yeah I fully understand that the strat I was proposing takes about 1.5 extra turns. But from my experience, due to a lot less tackle misses, it comes out, on average, with a quicker fight.

Exarion
Cooltrainer
Posts: 249
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:07 am

Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by Exarion » Sun Sep 13, 2015 3:00 am

An update to spinner strats:

Lyle: 1-tile running manip
James: 1-tile running manip
Karen: Pause manip
Johnson: Bag manip + teach Rock Tomb
Karen: Pause manip
Clark: Fight intentionally
Johnson: 1-tile running manip
Timmy: Pause manip
Trent: Run-into-bike manip
Bryant/Shayla: Bag manip
Wilton: Bike manip
Angelina: Bag manip + Super Repel
Angelina: Run-into-bike manip
Brice: Run-into-bike manip
Ethan: Bag manip + heal/Elixer
Timmy: Bag manip + candy
Chester: Bag manip (fuck type C spinners)
Aqua Grunt 1: Bag manip + Super Repel/candy
Colin: Run-into-bike manip
Jessica: Bag manip + Super Repel
Marcel: Bag manip + switch Castform and remove Mystic Water
Cristin: Run-into bike manip
Cristin: Bag manip
Marcel: Run-into-bike manip
Brice: Bag manip + use Super Repel
Grace: Pause manip if facing right; wait if facing down (you move fast enough to always pass her with decent reaction time)
Aqua Grunt 2: 1-tile running manip
Aqua Grunt 2: Pause manip

Substitute bag manip for pause/run-into-bike manip if you're not confident in your execution.
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/exarionu
Pokemon Red speedrunning guide: http://pastebin.com/CkVA5yvJ

Exarion
Cooltrainer
Posts: 249
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:07 am

Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by Exarion » Sat Oct 17, 2015 11:49 pm

A few minor strat updates:

- Having 2 Oran Berries for the mid/late game seems unnecessary. The first one (before Winona) still seems useful, but the second one (to heal off Swablu Aerial Ace damage) doesn't, because you can just use a Super Potion on Crobat. It will always attack you twice, which will put you into Torrent. Depending on your defenses, this strat might allow you to tank a Wing Attack from Golbat without a separate heal menu, which comes into play with <29/12/x IV Speed. The larger implication of this strat is possibly skipping the second set of Oran Berries when you have good HP exiting the woods and good stats for Roxanne.

- Stopping at 183 experience with x/x/29+ IV Attack seems worth it, because you can safely 2HKO Vigoroth at Lv. 29 with an X Attack (no need to skip the X Attack and worry about heal ranges). You'd still want 295 if the extra level helps you outspeed any of Norman's pokes.

- You can run-into-bike manip the Victory Road spinner, which saves frames and gives you a 2-tile window to stop running (as opposed to running to a specific tile in the dark).

- Whether you're getting 0 or 2 Persims, Rayquazas with a +Sp. Attack nature can use this strat on Glacia: X Attack, AA x3, Outrage x2. You save a turn of setup (~7 seconds), and you avoid taking an extra hit from Ice Ball, which can save a heal menu before Champion. If you miss the range on Walrein, you can still win in reasonable time by getting a 3-turn Outrage.
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/exarionu
Pokemon Red speedrunning guide: http://pastebin.com/CkVA5yvJ

User avatar
Vincento341
Bug Catcher
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:54 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by Vincento341 » Sun Nov 08, 2015 10:18 pm

RXFADEZ wrote: This is using very rough numbers and I 100% guarantee that they're not accurate. If anyone with more knowledge of Trainer AI would like to step in and tell me if my results were just lucky or the chance of Howl does increase after accuracy drops that would be great.
Thanks
From my own experience, I' had a period where I would mud slap turn 1 in that fight to try and help with consistency and It was just as random as previously (aside from the odd time he would actually miss). In terms of AI, I didn't really notice Poochyena using howl more/less than usual after being -1 accuracy. I'd also tested 2 mud slaps a few times and again didn't really notice too much in terms of anything past how frequently he'd miss. I ended up stopping because it was just slow and I ended up aiming for a faster/less consistent route anyway :)
Image Follow me @ Image Image Image Image

User avatar
RXFADEZ
Pokémon Trainer
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:32 pm
Contact:

Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by RXFADEZ » Mon Nov 09, 2015 3:51 pm

The first three terms seem fairly random to be fair. I've noticed from Turn 4 onwards however Pooch seems to Howl a lot more. Could just be a lot of confirmation bias. I'll eventually get around to testing it.

Locked

Return to “Pokémon Emerald”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest