Emerald Spinnerless Routing

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Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by Amoeba » Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:10 am

I did wonder, surprised you get that much xp from them. And I forget that the Manetric can be a range because I tend to reset 14 atk @ 6. Though that's certainly a good option if I start taking 13>14>16>18.
God the required stats have shifted so much, first 13/11/9, then 13/10/9 and now 13/11/10.
Rng manip when.

And yeah, thanks exarion~
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Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by Exarion » Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:15 am

9 Speed is very runnable if as long as you don't see a +0 at Lv. 6 or 7. The candies and the Route 114 Carbos can give you extra Speed for the pokes that outspeed you.

I'd still run 10 Special with 14 Attack. But RIP the 13/10/9 Kip. :(
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Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by werster » Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:10 am

I'm still probably going to run the same as I was before, 13/10/9 +1 to any of the 3.

Anyway, here's what I've got for T&L so far: http://pastebin.com/xEbBMAEg

I'm sick of looking at the numbers and feel like I'm missing some strat in some instance, but idk where it is. Want that shit as consistent as possible

Edit: Updating this as I come up with more alt strats. You can also do different things if your Rock Smasher isn't Pooch (Geodude/Makuhita/Aron/Marill are all options)

Edit: Done updating. Can't think of anything else you could do for now

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Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by Amoeba » Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:59 pm

So based off of one run, all these strats seem to work, I managed a 2:40:55 in a single try with a death at flannery.
Sorry I doubted your winona strats exarion, they are super legit.
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Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by Exarion » Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:02 pm

Getting a safe Torrent for Winona and Maxie seems to require multiple Potions (and at least 1 Oran). I lost a lot of time in a run last night because I could only heal to 23 HP for Winona, then got Aerial Ace from Swablu and Tropius and had to Revive. So I think we have to enter Winona at ~26-38 HP, which often requires 1 Potion and 1 Oran after Darius' Tropius. Then we need a second Potion or a second Oran in case Swablu uses Aerial Ace. With the Rare Candy strat, a Potion should always work, whereas an Oran might leave you short of the HP required to survive Crobat's Wing Attack.

Proposed shopping/item management to handle this:
- Buy 3 Potions, 3 Repels, 1 X Speed and 2 X Attacks in Petalburg. The X Speed on Wattson is faster only if Magneton confuses you, and it's significantly faster only if you hit yourself in confusion multiple times.
- Always get 4 Orans before Rustboro.
- Get the beach Potion before Petalburg Woods as necessary (you have three chances to get it, so you won't be punished for skipping it early).
- Don't equip an Oran for Roxanne unless you have 18+ Speed and either bad Defense or <19 Sp. Atk. In most cases, this is a low-risk play that saves time and an Oran.
- If you equipped an Oran for Roxanne but it wasn't used, remove it before entering the grass on Route 116.
- In Slateport, if you know you'll be low on Potions for the late game, you can buy up to 5 (sometimes requires buying fewer Supers, but you don't need more than 2-3 as long as you have Potions. Worst-case scenario: Buy more in Fallarbor).
- Get the Orans on Route 111 if you have none.

Potions and Orans are also very helpful to set up Quick Attack manipulation if you miss the first Mud Shot on Rival 2's Grovyle:

Turn 1: Mud Shot miss --> Absorb (~17/27 HP)
Turn 2: Potion/Oran Berry --> Absorb (4 HP)
Turn 3: Super Potion --> Quick Attack (~45 HP)
Turn 4: Mud Shot --> Absorb (~12 HP)
Turn 5: Mud Shot

EDIT: It also helps to be able to heal Castform to 50-65 HP before Tropius (not full), because T&L's Claydol sometimes uses Psychic on Castform when it's at full HP.
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Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by werster » Sat Apr 11, 2015 2:14 am

My strats for winona, especially if slower than Altaria are to go into the fight at 3-4 HP from just the Rare Candy, then Super Potion during the fight so you get Aerial Ace once, and use that health to go through. The extra Oran does help a lot though, as most defenses die from 23HP before Winona to Crobat's Wing Attack.

If you still want the X Speed, you can still pick one up before Wattson. It's faster if you outspeed Voltorb overall (IV 25-28 ties at lvl 22) and Manetric can Howl turn 2, it's not always Quick Attack so it can save time there too.

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Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by Exarion » Sat Apr 11, 2015 2:34 am

I like the Super Potion strat. How do you take damage so that you're at a good Torrent for Maxie? I looked into using an X item on Skarmory, but it sometimes uses Sand-Attack when you're at low HP (non-kill range).

I don't think picking up the X Speed is ever worth it, but maybe going back to 2/3/2/2 is a good idea with 10-11 Speed at Lv. 5. On the other hand, you want more healing items for Roxanne with good Speed. Might depend on your Attack for Manectric and whether you need to Potion or Oran before the Pooch fight.
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Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by Amoeba » Sat Apr 11, 2015 11:01 am

Considering that, if you were to use up all your potions before/on roxanne you can buy more at Slateport (grabbing the Stardust on the way gives you a free 3 potions, plenty for torrent manip) I personally wouldn't bother saving them up to roxanne. However I always take at least 4 orans, nearly always 6, mostly because its useful to have the smallest possible healer when it comes to torrent.
Also, for the petalburg mart I'm going 1/3/1/3, along with grabbing the pc potion (and beach potion if I use the pc potion early/want to be extra safe). I like having the option to X atk on Wattson, and it still leaves you open to grab the rock smash dude x speed if you want to/
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Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by Exarion » Sat Apr 11, 2015 7:38 pm

Exarion wrote:I'd still run 10 Special with 14 Attack. But RIP the 13/10/9 Kip. :(
Disregard this completely. Had 2:35 pace through T&L with IVs of 12/23/11/2/30/18 (approximately). Getting 295 experience helped a lot. Admittedly, I lost time on Swampert's final two fights partly because of my stats, but it was still the best run I've ever had with the worst Mudkip I've ever taken past Norman.

Running 9 Speed is annoying because any early +0 is basically a reset, but if you don't see the +0, it's essentially the same as a low 10.
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Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by Exarion » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:58 am

What do you guys think about fighting the Aroma Lady after the Youngster, rather than after Wattson?

PROS
- 3.3 seconds less movement
- One fewer menu (delay Strength; saves ~1.8 seconds)
- Don't have to get Route 111 Elixer for phone call timing (NPC trolling makes Route 119 Elixer faster)
- Phone call happens right before Trent (don't have to slow down)
- No Effect Spore troll
- 22 for Zigzagoon (better range, and sometimes the difference between outright slower and faster)
- 22 for Gulpin (better range at -1)
- 23 for Voltorb with a bit of extra exp. (easier to outspeed at +1)
- 24 for Manectric (hit magic number of 51 Attack unless 20 IV)
- 25 for Machop (damage range at 24 unless 29+ IV)
- 3 more Strength PP (probably useless unless you mess up)

CONS
- Have to hit 2 Mud Shots on Roselias, which OHKO from Torrent with Absorb
- Have to hit 2 Rock Tombs on Shroomish, which do ~15 dmg with Absorb and can troll with Stun Spore
- Good fight is 1 extra turn + speedfall animation

NOTES
- Aroma Lady doesn't have good AI (won't always Absorb when it can kill)
- RT+Absorb+RT on Shroomish is usually a range
- The Roselias are never ranges
- You can fight Aroma Lady first to get Torrent/Lv. 21-22 for the Youngster (only danger is Shroomish ranges)
- Any lost health/lost PP/status is irrelevant, since we heal at the center after Youngster anyway
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Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by Amoeba » Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:07 am

Its certainly plausible, except for
Exarion wrote:- Any lost health/lost PP/status is irrelevant, since we heal at the center after Youngster anyway
because I don't.
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Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by werster » Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:02 am

I'm thinking only under extreme circumstances for that, Exarion. i.e. if I had:

Low end Att (worried about Manetric/Ziggy), really low or high speed (so Ziggy/Voltorb matter), and high enough Sp Att but no Torrent, it seems like a pretty neat idea. Otherwise Rock Tombing Shroomish seems like hell

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Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by Exarion » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:03 am

Yeah, it seems situational. With 29+ IV Attack, you 2HKO Manectric and OHKO Machop with no problem (Manectric is like 1/50 to live). With 28, Manectric is unfavorable and Machop is like 85%.

Then there are certain Speed IVs that go 27 @ L21 --> 29 @ L22. The Zig/Gulpin fight is awful when you're slower (Headbutt flinch, Growl adding 2 turns, Sand-Attack trolling, Yawn, Sludge poison).

So I'd do it with both that Attack and Speed, and possibly with just one. With a 2-turn Shroomish, you're basically breaking even because of movement/menuing even before accounting for ranges.
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Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by RXFADEZ » Wed Apr 15, 2015 4:58 pm

Exarion wrote:Yeah, it seems situational. With 29+ IV Attack, you 2HKO Manectric and OHKO Machop with no problem (Manectric is like 1/50 to live). With 28, Manectric is unfavorable and Machop is like 85%.
If you did this strat with the early Aroma Lady would it eliminate the range for a 27+ Attack IV Mud Shot on Manectric with an X Attack. If so is could save a little bit more time there, but would reduce your Potion/X Speed count.

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Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by werster » Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:22 am

Thoughts on not catching a Rock Smash slave and teaching it to Marshtomp over Rock Tomb? Rock Tomb isn't used like at all after Wattson, could potentially save a bit of time

It does make T&L a bit different, would prob only be looking at it with high Sp Att: http://pastebin.com/S7tEgQGX

Rock Smash can also be slightly useful through Norman's Gym to avoid heal ranges (and the X Att on Slakoth if you get the Def Drop), and potentially save a turn off Slaking

(Another small thing, I've been picking up 2 Ethers in my PP route and it's actually faster to get the 2 Leppa berries instead)

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Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by Amoeba » Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:52 pm

Provided you're not planning on skipping an x atk on winona and going for the range with RT that makes sense.

Like the Leppa berry idea. What PP items do you get anyway? I realised the other day I'm still getting everything from the old route (2 ethers, max ether, 2 elixers and max elixer).
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Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by werster » Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:20 pm

The PP items I get are 2 Leppa Berries, 3 Elixirs with Persims, and 1 Ether 3 Elixirs without (no maxs). You can skip an Elixir and an Ether for the Max Elixir, but it means the Maxie Double and Archie has to be done in 8 Surfs total, which is possible but you won't know if you get it until you are there

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Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by Exarion » Fri Apr 17, 2015 1:42 am

I like Rock Smash slave-less, especially if you don't happen to see a slave while Abra hunting. One thing to consider is the length of Marshtomp/Swampert's cry vs. Poochyena's -- you're smashing enough boulders that it makes a difference. However, I'm not sure whether overworld cries count toward IGT.
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Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by Amoeba » Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:24 am

If GF's logic applies (it probably wont) then bit where the rock smash slave appears on screen would count as a cutscene and wont be counted for IGT.
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Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by werster » Fri Apr 17, 2015 1:27 pm

Gen 3 is all about lag/loading not counting to IGT. For a decent reference or what does and doesn't count, what you can do is go on VBA and show the lag counter along with the frame counter. PS: Cries will count

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Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by jolteontrainer » Thu Jul 16, 2015 10:00 pm

What do you guys think of no Pooch strats?

Note: I only tested this strat on a couple runs. Good special is kinda necessary, so maybe no pooch if good special?

Pros:
- Not catching another poke saves a minute.
- Less scrolling in the party menu (saves maybe a few frames depending on who you caught in order).
- All you really need to catch is Abra on Route 116 (if abra is caught early, just repel the rest of the route out and catch swablu later).
- Poochyena's name won't show up every time you rock smash.
- Pooch won't show up on the hall of fame.
-Tate&Liza fight is faster, but riskier.

Cons:
- Poochyena shows up more often then not anyways, so catching one wouldn't waste too much time.
- Faster to teach Pooch rock smash then to Marshtomp
- Tate&Liza fight is easier, but slower.

Things to consider:
-Teach Rock Smash to Marshtomp over Rock Tomb

- Is it worth teaching rock tomb at all if rock smash will takes it's place? The most important fights for Rock tomb is just the Aqua fights in Slateport, Even then, Rock tomb can miss, occasionally. Better to evolve mudkip earlier to one shot the first Aqua grunt and then Tackle Zubat in the next fight.

- The Gyrados fight before Mossdeep would require good attack ranges for 3 turn strengths.

- Tate and Liza is already a bitch enough, but the fight would go:
Turn1: Swampert: XSpec. Castform:Powder Snow (Castform dies, bring in Swablu)
Turn2: Swampert: Xspeed, Swablu: Revive Castform (Bring in Castform again)
Turn3: Swampert: Surf, Castform: Revive Swablu again (Bring in abra)
Turn 4: Swampert: Xspec if bad special, otherwise surf if torrent. Abra: heal Swampert with oran or potion if necessary.
I'm sure there's better strats, but that's what I came up with for now.

- After getting Dive, teach dive over mud shot. The Archie fight would be:
Turn1: GaurdSpec
Turn2: Xspec
The rest of the fight: Surf.
Sharpedo is frail enough to die to torrent surf, but if not surf twice.
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Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by Exarion » Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:54 am

I never did a run without a Rock Smash slave, but I think I concluded from testing that it's optimal if you have good Special for T&L.

The game saves before the Hall of Fame, so one fewer Pokemon shouldn't matter.
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Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by Amoeba » Fri Jul 17, 2015 2:20 am

Yeah, werster already outlined RS-slaveless strats in this thread, above. They work well enough, but I'm yet to have a run where I haven't found a pooch on good enough sp.atk to say for certain. As above though, it seems to work fine in testing for me.
werster wrote:Thoughts on not catching a Rock Smash slave and teaching it to Marshtomp over Rock Tomb? Rock Tomb isn't used like at all after Wattson, could potentially save a bit of time

It does make T&L a bit different, would prob only be looking at it with high Sp Att: http://pastebin.com/S7tEgQGX

Rock Smash can also be slightly useful through Norman's Gym to avoid heal ranges (and the X Att on Slakoth if you get the Def Drop), and potentially save a turn off Slaking

(Another small thing, I've been picking up 2 Ethers in my PP route and it's actually faster to get the 2 Leppa berries instead)
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Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by Exarion » Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:44 am

I've been working on a few minor route changes, and I'll post them here in case anyone wants to use them or give feedback.

Flannery -- Set up on the Slugma, not the Numel. You often get Light Screen, which is useless. Smog miss or non-poison is great, too. Smog poison wastes time but prevents you from getting paralyzed by Body Slam. Sunny Day is the same as if Numel used it, but you usually get one fewer turn of sunlight text. Also, you can always Water Gun the Numel with 7+ IV Sp. Atk because the sun isn't up. The one drawback is that if Slugma uses Sunny Day, the sun is up for an extra turn, which could give Torkoal an extra turn to hit you with a boosted Overheat.

Norman -- I'm not a fan of setting up Torrent here, so if you're convinced that's a good play, disregard this. I like to heal out of Facade range before Slaking, rather than healing on Slaking's first turn. This minimizes the chance that you'll lose the run to a critical. Also, with certain HP/Defense IV combinations, healing on Slaking means getting hit into Facade range again, which means another heal and another chance to get crit.

So assuming you enter Slaking out of Facade range, use a 5th X Attack, then use Strength, then evaluate the damage roll. If it's a low roll (~66 dmg), use a 6th X Attack, then use Mud Shot for the 2HKO. If it's a mid roll (~70 dmg), skip the 6th X Attack and Mud Shot immediately for the 2HKO. If it's a high roll, you'll trigger Slaking's Sitrus Berry, which means you'll need to WG x2 before finishing it with Mud Shot. This is about 7 seconds faster on average than going for the safe 3HKO. If you do go for the 3HKO, waste turns with X items. Stalling with a Poke Ball is 4 seconds slower with each use.

Experience management -- The main benefit to candying to Lv. 30 for Brawly is that you have Lv. 30 for the Vigoroth before Norman. At Lv. 29, it's unlikely to die in three hits unless you have x/31/14+ IV Attack, so you risk dealing with heal ranges, reviving, etc. However, with x/31/14+, you get a safe 3HKO at Lv. 29, and you don't lose much (if anything) from being a lower level for Brawly/Mary/George/Norman. So unless you need the levels to outspeed something, just get 183 experience for early Marshtomp rather than 295 for early candy, then use two candies before Shelly in the Weather Instititute.

Healing items -- Buy 1-3 Potions in Slateport to ensure you can reach a safe Torrent for Winona --> Matt. This often means you can afford only 3 Super Potions, but this is usually fine because you can Potion on Rival 2, before Maxie 1, Flannery, etc., in place of a Super Potion. Then in the herb shop, buy 6 Energy Roots and 5-6 Heal Powders. A 7th Energy Root is rarely needed with the above strats for Flannery/Norman and the extra levels you get from getting the desert and lake candies. Buying only 4 Heal Powders can be problematic with Persim skip, especially when Spinda spams Teeter Dance.
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Re: Emerald Spinnerless Routing

Post by RXFADEZ » Sat Sep 05, 2015 7:09 am

Flannery - This is already largely done and with good attack people even Strength the Slugma to avoid misses

Norman - A commonly used strat here is heal turn1, Mud Shot turn 2, X Attack turn 3 and Mud Shot turn 4. However, I see why your strat is beneficial

EXP - I assume you mean getting Marshtomp in Route 116 which can be useful because you can skip teaching Rock Tomb. However, the common strat used for the Vigoroth is X Attack, Mud Shot, Mud Shot and I think it's a range at level 29 (I could be wrong, don't quote me on this). This is because the second Mud Shot can put in healing range which creates a whole slew of problems.

Healing items - I personally like to go into the Rival 2 fight with a minimum of three potions (two for small healing (slugma embers, etc) and one for healing before Winona). And I don't think more than that is required. The current route has you pick up 5 potions (PC, 3 @ Petalburg, Beach) and most of these can avoid being used by healing with Orans, so quite often no potions will need to be purchased at this point.

Just a few thoughts

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