What's new in saf

User avatar
Amoeba
Cooltrainer
Posts: 280
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:26 am
Contact:

Re: What's new in saf

Post by Amoeba » Sat Jul 25, 2015 10:52 am

Not sure how useful this is to anyone, but Buster_poke just tweeted a pastebin with his entire route in.

http://pastebin.com/dBnKdaWc

(Credit to https://twitter.com/Buster_poke)
~

User avatar
G_heinz
Pokémon Trainer
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: What's new in saf

Post by G_heinz » Sun Jul 26, 2015 4:48 pm

nice, i didn't see that. thx.

issue i take with buster's route is just that his shopping is all over the place. i'm not really sure why he doesn't just buy everything in fallarbor like we do. he also spends a lot of time picking up selling items (e.g. bullet seed, charcoal) that we stopped getting a while ago. i haven't timed everything (such as how long it takes to get hp up), but i think it's just intuitively slower not just to get those items but also to enter marts and buy/sell that many more multiple times that he does. in particular, getting desert candy, in addition to the crucial leveling benefits, is simply faster to pick up than lake candy (and the repel placement works out better with it as well). granted, especially with the kip he's using, desert candy is mostly useless ("mid-candy" is the only unique strat 9829 really benefits specifically from doing, and it's only possible with extra experience that you would rather not get in the ideal abra case), but even if you still just candy all at once from 33 > 36 like he does, desert candy is still quicker to get, like i said.

i also find it interesting that his index number for the kip is 10361 (on our list, it's 9829), but he uses RNG reporter to produce the list of kips, and if you notice, FRAME 10361 is ~500 later than 9829, which seems to be related to the 500-frame offset that we factor in when calibrating the timing of the list provided by mountebank.

i've been thinking about writing up a route in japanese when i get around to formulating a more in-depth route in the near future, either for 15823 or 9829. dunno that he'll use it but at least it'll be available.

edit: also rock tomb has never been more useless LOL. pretty much every major fight that ever used rock tomb has never been more doable without it. only fight that i specifically detest not having rock tomb for is the museum zubat (in the present situation we either tackle x2 or WG x2 if in torrent), but even with rock tomb you could miss and get supersonic'd that way, which is actually worse because in such a case you've also done no damage yet. only other convenience of it is killing zubats in granite cave, but that's also problematic for the same reason, as well as the fact that it provides so little exp.

however if his archie 2 strats actually work without putting crobat into heal range, then they may actually be better than my current strats. they rely on swagger though, which is not always guaranteed.

edit2: +2 strength isn't even close to a oneshot on crobat and it almost certainly hits it into heal range no matter the roll.

User avatar
G_heinz
Pokémon Trainer
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: What's new in saf

Post by G_heinz » Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:23 am

just want this known for all future races/marathons LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJ6HVcldmR0

this is the earliest "cluster" i found so it's the one i tested most. the order of encounters (starting somewhere around 14-15s from soft reset) seems to be approximately this:

L8 abra male (bold)
L10 maku male
L8 abra male (modest)
L7 zubat male
L8 maku female
L8 zubat female

i also have caught a different bold abra and a naughty abra somewhere in or near that range as well. not as consistently though.

anyway while it's far from a thorough understanding of the cave encounters, it still provides a solid backup strat for a race or marathon if you've already evolved/talked to steven and still have no abra.

me 15 hrs ago: must be nice

User avatar
G_heinz
Pokémon Trainer
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: What's new in saf

Post by G_heinz » Sun Aug 30, 2015 8:27 am

i've shared this with most of the other runners, but figured i might as well keep up with this thread too.

here is a video showing what i think should now be the standard tnl strat. it doesn't make hasty strats obsolete, but definitely improves the odds for the standard non-hasty kip.

in the past our obstacle in tnl has seemingly been two-fold: 1) kill solrock before it gets the sun up (so you don't straight up die), and 2) safely 2hko both pokes while avoiding heal range (so the fight is relatively expeditious).

the oldest strat was the most "obvious", at least in terms of a potential solution that the game seems to provide you somewhat explicitly--lead pert+castform and use the latter to set up the rain, thereby fulfilling (1) and (2) simultaneously, as without the rain boost, surf x2 does not 2hko lunatone. the problem with this strat was that not only did lunatone seem to favor psychic on castform (which always kills regardless of its stats), but solrock seemed to favor sunny day in that situation as well. psychic+sunny day was thus pretty much all but rip run.

more recently exarion tested "slave strats" and demonstrated that by leading with pert+slave, the lower level pokemon makes the AI favor offensive moves to KO the weaker poke, and not just lunatone, but solrock as well, indirectly avoiding sunny day not by countering with rain, but by manipulating it to use a different move. this result also seemed to line up well with something that we already knew about solrock, namely that while luna psychic would always ohko castform, solrock's psychic would sometimes fail to ohko depending on your stats--thus it seems as if, knowing this, the AI would favor sunny day instead. around the same time keizaron started using x special in addition to x speed as a stand-in for rain, which we no longer had without castform. thus the strat became: x speed > x special > surf x2 (on the ideal pattern, which would be no sunny day, no light screen, no calm mind, and no solarbeam). on 26+IV+speed, it would be identical except skip x speed.

on such strats, solarbeam would still be a problem, especially if you got it during setup. to mitigate this issue, buster would teach dive early, rather than waiting to get it after the gym. this meant that barring sunny day (which was always rip anyway), you could always react to a solarbeam charge by diving. however, if +1 spatk, you would have to direct the dive at lunatone, as +1 dive hits solrock into heal range.

the video above shows a slightly different strat that makes use of early dive in order to skip x special. rather than only using dive as an answer to solarbeam charge, this strat always dives turn 2 after turn 1 x speed, but hits solrock instead. +0 dive will only do about half, and turn 3 you surf as usual, which will knock out solrock and do a little less than half to lunatone. however, this strat takes advantage of the "distributed damage" effect of double battles, whereby the damage output of a move that hits both opposing pokemon is halved. rather, it takes advantage of the fact that after KOing solrock, surf will now be hitting for full damage, meaning that it will do twice as much to lunatone as the first surf. in the video i got calm mind from lunatone, but in such a case you can set up x special to net the kill. if no calm mind (ideal), x special is unnecessary.

this strat is pretty huge bc it accomplishes the two goals stated above in the preferred order, namely it prioritizes the elimination of sun (i.e. solrock), but also accomplishes what rain and normal x special strats were intended to do in the first place.

+speed seems to work even better with this strat, as it eliminates all setup entirely (as long as no CM), but it could be sketchy if you also got first-turn solarbeam charge (would mean you dive, then get hit by solarbeam--however if you heal to full on the slave's turn while underwater, it's likely you could be okay, as lunatone "probably" wouldn't target you and you can survive a solarbeam from full depending on the kip). at the very least, it makes tnl near fool-proof AND quite fast as well, as long as 1) you don't get a random sunny day, and 2) you don't get first turn light screen. second turn light screen should work out fine as long as you x special BEFORE your first surf, to make sure you finish off the solrock. however this is of course worse, as it gives it another turn to potentially use sunny day.

hope that was legible enough.

User avatar
G_heinz
Pokémon Trainer
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: What's new in saf

Post by G_heinz » Fri Oct 16, 2015 1:40 am

want to share my updated shopping to see what people think: http://pastebin.com/qVbDPfUA

this comes because a) it needed ironed out for a while now, and b) i noticed that the primary advantage to early candy (L30 for vig = OHKO on any atk) was still obtainable without early candy on higher atk (30-31IV~/13+IV+). This requires some workarounds and impacts shopping definitely nonnegligibly, as it most often requires you buy 1 less super. as such, it is somewhat high risk, but i feel as times are improving the way they are this is especially necessary. i also did the math completely without stardust, so if you do want to build in some extra safety to your route, you can feel free to pick it up as it suits you.

anyway, i hope the math is all right, bc i really don't wanna do it all over again LOL

Exarion
Cooltrainer
Posts: 249
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:07 am

Re: What's new in saf

Post by Exarion » Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:21 pm

After PBing with 10606 today on a major derust run (two optionals, one spinner, and many other mistakes), I'm fully on board with +Speed Mudkips. In addition to saving major time on T&L (and the fights before and after it), these Kips add a ton of consistency to the early game.

List of benefits here: http://pastebin.com/pHyXAeYw

RNG manip variance aside, I think it would help to nail down which +Speed Mudkip is best, then refine a route for it. 10606 is unique because it has perfect Speed and is near two other runnable Kips. However, it has bad Attack, and the surrounding Kips have bad Speed. Heinz has tried a few other +Speed Kips and could speak more about those.
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/exarionu
Pokemon Red speedrunning guide: http://pastebin.com/CkVA5yvJ

pirateluck
Preschooler
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:58 pm

Re: What's new in saf

Post by pirateluck » Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:09 am

Wanted to give some opinion on the early dive strats.

The current problem is that if solrock charges on the turn you dived, there is a real chance of losing the run. The safer solution is to simply use xspecial instead of diving if solrock does not charge the previous turn.

T1 -> xspeed
Scenario 1: solrock charges solarbeam -> heinz strats

Scenario 2: solrock psychic/flamethrower slaves ->xspec ->2xsurf/ dive lunatone (if solrock decides to charge after xspc)

EDIT: also solrock favours solarbeam if its able to kill swampert

EDIT2: I realised after smiley do some runs that we could xspeed, surf, dive on solrock, surf; so xspec is not needed after all; just that it is possible for solrock to sunny day or lunatone to light screen during the turn when swampert is diving

Exarion
Cooltrainer
Posts: 249
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:07 am

Re: What's new in saf

Post by Exarion » Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:42 pm

Probably done running this game for a while, so I'll dump some of my recent notes/thoughts here.

I think the best cluster of actually good Mudkips is this one:
*15657 | Hasty 2/25/29/30/31/23
*15658 | Docile 23/30/31/30/17/29
15659 | Bashful 29/30/17/2/20/1
15660 | Timid 1/2/20/24/15/15
15661 | Impish 15/24/15/12/27/9
15662 | Hasty 9/12/27/21/20/4
15663 | Quiet 4/21/20/29/13/23
15664 | Hardy 23/29/13/8/23/1
15665 | Sassy 1/8/23/12/18/26
15666 | Adamant 26/12/18/30/19/13
*15667 | Naive 13/30/19/30/3/31

The 4:30 resets are a pain, but these Kips go in hard. The only major weaknesses are the Docile's Speed for T&L and the Naive's bad Sp. Def for T&L. The Naive also has to fight Timmy to avoid 30 Speed for Rival 2, but this allows you to skip the X Speed there and improves many other things.

If you want to run this cluster, do it because you want a good Mudkip, not a good time. Mounte's original cluster, although full of questionable Kips, will likely get you a good time (~1:59) sooner, simply because it gives you way more chances at Abra other fights with RNG unrelated to stats (Rival 2, Flannery, Norman). I did 69 resets with the above cluster and got 8 Kips.

Speed is obviously the main reason this cluster is good, but the defenses give it several key advantages over some of the more commonly run Kips. The Docile and Naive take significantly less damage in the first five fights, allowing more runs to make it to Abra. The Docile can skip Oran Berries. All three can safely use 1 X Defend on Norman. The Docile holds up really well in fights that depend on damage ranges, such as Archie 1, Winona and Archie 2. The Hasty can hold Torrent for T&L and Shelly thanks to its Sp. Def. You can buy fewer Super Potions, Energy Roots, etc., to avoid selling Overheat or taking the slower Fortree Mart.

Finally, some general routing notes:
- Getting the full 549 desert candy experience is difficult unless you're planning to take bad Abras (which is bad routing for top runners, IMO). Also, if you try to get all of this experience early, you sometimes hit Lv. 25 for Archie 1's Golbat, which you don't want. So I propose either fighting the Route 116 Bug Catcher (only if Torrent, because otherwise the Wurmple can poison you, effectively ending the run) or going for only 360 experience, which gets you Lv. 18 for Grovyle. You can still get to 549 from Route 111/114/110 encounters. If you don't, I think Lv. 27 for Machop and Lv. 29 for Vigoroth is fine, because sometimes you need to save Mud Shot PP and sometimes you only go to +5 on Norman. Also, delaying the desert candy allows you to reach Lv. 33 for the Mt. Pyre Zubats, Lv. 36 for Doduo, Lv. 36 for Swablu and Lv. 38 for Xatu, all of which have minor benefits.
- I think you should always try to buy 3 X Speeds for Kyogre (use on Sidney, Glacia and Drake). You need great Speed to outspeed Sharpedo, and attacking into a Swagger sucks. You need good Speed for the first Glalie, and attacking into a Light Screen is even worse. Also, if you have terrible Speed, you'll want to use one on Steven (so you'd skip Glacia).
- I'm not sure how many Persims other runners are getting, but I don't see any reason to get more than 2. If you're worried about Shelly 2's Mightyena, just X Special on Sharpedo (this is much faster than Scary Face+Swagger+Persim activation).
- I made a paste detailing T&L's AI: http://pastebin.com/dDCH7V19

15657 notes: http://pastebin.com/4rZaVFxk
15658 notes (incomplete): http://pastebin.com/xKRYPFCg
15667 notes (incomplete): http://pastebin.com/xH05Qapt
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/exarionu
Pokemon Red speedrunning guide: http://pastebin.com/CkVA5yvJ

Locked

Return to “Pokémon Ruby/Sapphire”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests