What's new in saf

User avatar
G_heinz
Pokémon Trainer
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 8:27 pm

What's new in saf

Post by G_heinz » Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:03 pm

in the interest of the notion of "transparency" proposed recently, i thought i'd take the time to put together a little summary of new ideas floating around in talk of routing sapphire. most of it comes from what we've learned from keizaron's recent bulk attempts running pirateluck's hidden power fighting kips (10602 and 10603) and the discussions between him and me regarding those attempts, so thanks to him for that. those runs themselves come from the last few months of improvements initiated by exarion, which was itself made possible by mountebank's cracking the list of mudkips and spinner manipulation, so thanks to both of them for that.

a couple key differences between sapphire now and the way it used to be run:

- RNG manipulation allows us to obtain the same exact mudkip every single time if we wish. we thus know our exact stats from the first battle.
- Menu manipulation of spinners allows us to control exactly how much experience we obtain, allowing us to route our levels precisely.

with these two facts in mind, combined with the obvious advantage of hidden power fighting, i put together a pastebin containing all the relevant exp benchmarks and damage calculations for both kips here. it also makes use of a different rare candy than the old route, the one in the desert down route 112 from lavaridge (thx to exa). depending on experience, it can be used either just before brawly or just before norman, the latter option granting you L34 for the swablu in fortree gym, letting you evolve for that fight (sort of a minor benefit, but a benefit nonetheless). it is a substitute for the lake candy traditionally obtained on route 120.

anyway, i thought it would be useful for the community to have a thread like this where new ideas can be shared, since skype groups can become stale and there are a lot of new runners anyway.

User avatar
G_heinz
Pokémon Trainer
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: What's new in saf

Post by G_heinz » Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:31 am

in considering when to use the desert candy:

benefits of early candy (after flannery):
- L28 for machop (guarantees MS range)
- L29 for zangoose (near-guarantees MS 2HKO for 10602)

benefits of late candy (before norman):
- L30 for first slaking (always live facade x2)
- L33 for second mt. pyre zubat (strength is a range for both on L32)
- L34 after doduo (can evolve before kylee)

late candy is only possible with an additional 1125 exp, satisfied readily only by trent. i propose that 10603 always fight trent, as this also gives L26 for archie 1's sharpedo, which is a speedtie at L25 for 17-20IV neutral. alternatively, if 10603 has killed a zubat encounter in granite cave, consider fighting timmy instead, as the exp won't get you L26 but the 3 additional speed EVs gives you one more statpoint at L25. however, late candy has other benefits for 10603 such as allowing it to always survive facade x2.

on 10602 (as well as probably most kips with 21+IV neutral speed), try your best to dodge them all and fight hiker brice just before mt. chimney (if you got 6 extra exp in granite cave) or collector edwin on the second pass. then candy after flannery.

Keizaron
Site Admin
Posts: 273
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:13 pm
Location: Spokane, WA
Contact:

Re: What's new in saf

Post by Keizaron » Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:00 am

I find the best way to approach the early candy strat is to blitz the spinners and if you hit one, it's guaranteed. If not, a wild encounter kill can put you at 27 after going spinnerless.

If you go for that method and you go spinnerless up to Fallarbor, it may be wise to pick up the Carbos before Meteor Falls if you're the 10603. If you go spinnerless still, you only speedtie Archie's Sharpedo.

User avatar
G_heinz
Pokémon Trainer
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: What's new in saf

Post by G_heinz » Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:43 pm

one wild encounter won't normally give you enough exp for L27, but with a bad cave you can easily KO a few extra arons/makus to put you within that range. i haven't watched your run yet keiz, but i'm guessing that's what you did when you killed the electrike encounter.

the idea with some of the new repel strats is that because you need extra experience for the desert candy strat to be effective, there are a few potential "yolo" spots where getting a wild encounter to faint is actually desirable. the first is route 116, where i've cut out a repel in favor of yoloing the grass by the rotating bug catcher both on the way there and on the way back. this allows you to get a bit of experience that you're about to grind for in granite cave anyway (whismur, nincada, and the rare skitty are all ohko'd in torrent), OR it can allow you to catch a flyer/rock smasher if you haven't already, although they are very rare. in the rarest event that you're able to find and catch a L8 zig or taillow, this can also be used for granite cave repel strats to increase your odds of abra, a strat normally reserved for situations in which you have no early rock smasher and catch a L8 makuhita. using only one repel here also allows you to menu manip janice at least on the first pass, when fighting her is usually the slowest. if you repel on the square to her upper left and maintain perfect movement, the repel will wear off on the tile before the bug catcher, manipulating him as well (not necessary, but pretty cool).

other potential areas for wild encounter exp gain are route 114 when/if searching for swablu and route 110 on the second pass when your super repel wears off near timmy (where keiz got the electrike encounter).

exp yields for common encounters:

ROUTE 116
- L6 whismur (58)
- L7 whismur (68)
- L6 nincada (55)
- L7 nincada (65)
- L6 skitty (55)
- L7 skitty (55)
- L6 zigzagoon (51)
- L7 zigzagoon (60)
- L8 zigzagoon (68)
- L6 taillow (50)
- L7 taillow (59)
- L8 taillow (67)

ROUTE 114
- L15 surskit (135)
- L15 lotad (158)
- L16 lotad (169)
- L15 seviper (353)
- L16 seviper (377)
- L17 seviper (400)

(other encounters here include lombre, which can't be ohko'd, and swablu, which also can't be ohko'd and which you aim to catch anyway).

ROUTE 110
- L13 oddish (144)
- L12 zigzagoon (102)
- L12 wingull (109)
- L12 electrike (178)
- L13 electrike (193)
- L13 plusle (222)
- L12 minun (205)
- L13 minun (222)
- L12 gulpin (128)
- L13 gulpin (139)

as another note, if you don't get enough exp to hit L27 off torkoal, you can get 27 off laura's meditite and candy right before brawly instead of before her. in order to do this, you would still need 411 exp from encounters on top of normal cave exp (rather than the full 684). this allows you to forgo spinners more easily, and will still get you L29 for zangoose, but the problem with this strat is you are a measly 9 exp short of L34 after kylee's swablu. so while this would allow you to go spinnerless even more easily, it would basically require you to kill an encounter in the grass between briney's house and petalburg gym. so that is an option.

pirateluck
Preschooler
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:58 pm

Re: What's new in saf

Post by pirateluck » Sun Jun 07, 2015 10:52 pm

If we have to fight some encounters to get to lvl 28 using desert candy before brawly, it wouldn't be worth it. We might as well go straight for the double water gun or mud shot?

Also didn't know about the lvl 8 abra repel strats Kreygasm

Keizaron
Site Admin
Posts: 273
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:13 pm
Location: Spokane, WA
Contact:

Re: What's new in saf

Post by Keizaron » Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:55 pm

Heinz, I believe I had like 400ish experience leaving the cave? I don't remember fighting more than 4 or 5 total encounters.

8 Makuhita (99), 10 Aron (137), 7 Makuhita (87), 8 Makuhita (99) = 422 + 12 Electrike (178) = 600 total experience

Pirate, Brawly isn't why desert candy is a strat. Level 30 for Vigoroth is why. [Also on the 602, you Mud Shot Machop at 27 anyway]

One encounter killed saves two turns, one on a deadly fight. That's worth it.

edit: It might make May 3's Grovyle not a range anymore, but guaranteed. I can't remember.

Also, repel strats for Abra are definitely a backup, but definitely nice. 16% in Steven's room and 15% on the normal ground floor. 5-6% is noticeable.

User avatar
G_heinz
Pokémon Trainer
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: What's new in saf

Post by G_heinz » Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:02 am

quick note, i fucked up a lot of the numbers big time (can't really tell why, but it doesn't matter), so i'm writing up a new paste to reflect the actual math. main fuckup is that you're not short 684 exp for L27 off torkoal, you're actually only 189 short. obviously this changes a lot.

and @pirateluck, as keiz said, L30 for vigoroth is big because otherwise 10603 will speedtie at L29. 10602 does outspeed at L29 though, so there may be less of a case to make for it for that kip.

User avatar
Amoeba
Cooltrainer
Posts: 280
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:26 am
Contact:

Re: What's new in saf

Post by Amoeba » Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:09 pm

Dropping in to say I appreciate this thread and will be stealing all of this for Ruby runs Kappa
~

User avatar
G_heinz
Pokémon Trainer
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: What's new in saf

Post by G_heinz » Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:33 pm

glad to hear meebs. i'm gonna be posting a new paste soon that has the right exp benchmarks, but the damage calcs themselves are correct. pretty sure the only mistake that i made was exp to L27, whereas everything else is still accurate i think.

also @keiz, i think this is in the paste but on such good attack as these kips have, may 3's grovyle is guaranteed even at L31. however, you get L32 with early or late use of the candy (even if you use it after battle girl laura), and L32 guarantees the range for 29+IV neutral attack, so that's another bonus.

User avatar
G_heinz
Pokémon Trainer
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: What's new in saf

Post by G_heinz » Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:22 am

revised desert candy notes: http://pastebin.com/pND1q0pP

got rid of the discussion on spinners due to the fact that you only need 189 exp. also am now less ecstatic about its previously seemingly myriad uses--at least for the HP fighting kips--for the following reasons:

- 10602 already ohko's machop at L27, already lives facade x2, and already outspeeds vigoroth on L29
- 10603 not only outspeeds archie's sharpedo at L25 after killing just 2 zubats in granite cave, but those same 2 speed EVs let it outspeed vigoroth at L29
- both are already guaranteed to ohko may 3's grovyle on L31

about the only consistent benefit i'm still sold on is L33 for the second mt. pyre zubat, which...isn't that big of a deal.

however it's unquestionably still extremely useful for kips with worse attack (which is most kips), and it's still faster to pick up than lake candy anyway and lets the super repel on route 120 wear off in a better spot (between the hex girl and the beauty, allowing you to super repel/menu manip the beauty at the same time without yoloing the grass behind the hex girl).

after i feel i've exhausted the relevant calcs for these kips on this strat, i want to explore its usefulness for other mudkips as well.

EDIT: guess i also forgot some calcs i did a while back, which includes L29 HP vs. vigoroth--10603 is unfavorable to ohko at +3, and 10602 is only 68.75%. so it's not just about outspeeding, but also guaranteeing the kill, which it is on L30 for both.

Keizaron
Site Admin
Posts: 273
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:13 pm
Location: Spokane, WA
Contact:

Re: What's new in saf

Post by Keizaron » Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:39 am

This pretty much just confirms to pick up the desert candy as a "just in case".

User avatar
G_heinz
Pokémon Trainer
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: What's new in saf

Post by G_heinz » Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:59 pm

updated a few more things just now. most importantly i found out that you actually can't use early candy AFTER battle girl laura--you have to be L28 before fighting her or you'll be 114 exp short of L30 for vig. so rip late-early candy strats.

additionally i added the exp count to L30 for vig without desert candy: 2028, which amounts to any combination of 3 spinners, OR trent + edwin + 6 extra wild exp, OR trent + timmy + 71 extra wild exp, OR trent + hiker brice + 174 extra wild exp.

User avatar
G_heinz
Pokémon Trainer
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: What's new in saf

Post by G_heinz » Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:34 am

spammer status lolololololololol

but srsly i put together a paste containing potential marathon/race clusters that are close to soft reset and could be ran in the event that you missed your first choice of mudkip in an RTA setting and had saved in front of the bag: http://pastebin.com/eAkBNgcG

as well i put together a short analysis of +speed kips as they match up vs. may 2 and tnl: http://pastebin.com/Y3x3nJXm. in short, because you must always be outsped turn 1 vs. grovyle, and must always outspeed turn 2, having 30 speed always forces at least one speedtie whether you x speed or not (grovyle has 45 speed), putting death a coinflip away. my analysis attempts to provide a solution for +speed kips based on their IV that insures they have either 29 or 31 speed for that fight--the former uses normal strats, while the latter can skip x speed.

pirateluck
Preschooler
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:58 pm

Re: What's new in saf

Post by pirateluck » Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:57 am

I did a test using the 10606 kip using xspeed when fighting wattson and found it to be kinda useful.
A marshtomp with speed 34 would out-speed magnemite immediately so you just kill it with a mud shot, then using the xspeed on the voltorb fight, you can out-speed magneton preventing magneton from sonicboom / supersonic.

My test showed a roughly ~5 second timesave compared to a perfect wattson (supersonic misses and no deaths) so the timesave may not neccessarily be worth it but still this usage of xspeed offers extra consistency

User avatar
G_heinz
Pokémon Trainer
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: What's new in saf

Post by G_heinz » Thu Jun 11, 2015 8:21 pm

good point pirate. i've edited the rival 2/tnl paste to reflect that. turns out 34 is the magic number not just to outspeed magnemite, but to outspeed voltorb at +1, which is pretty cool. so i'm thinking 25+IV+ speed should do the strats i outlined in order to skip x speed on rival 2, then use that x speed on wattson instead. another cool thing is you'll outspeed brooke's wingull, so you don't have to worry about being confused going into roselia.

also made a paste containing all possible damage rolls from the first slaking's facade on neutral, plus, and minus defense at both L29 and L30: http://pastebin.com/gd43AHRG. accompanying it is your possible HP stat by IV on L29 and L30. this is to help in finding runnable combinations of def/HP that only require 1 x def (as well as to know if a certain kip would benefit from late candy in order to always survive facade x2).

User avatar
G_heinz
Pokémon Trainer
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: What's new in saf

Post by G_heinz » Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:32 am

ran into a bit of a challenge today while testing some of this stuff.

i did two runs back to back with 810 | Hasty 27/31/7/25/18/26 to test the +speed strats i've been working on. in both runs, i fought timmy and took carbos, which gives 12 extra speed EVs (zigzagoon (1) + electrike (1) + carbos (10) = 12). in the first, i also KO'd 2-3 zubats in granite cave because i got blown up by shitty encounters. the second run was first enc, first ball abra followed by two arons and a makuhita, so i didn't kill any zubats.

to my surprise/annoyance, while the first run did outspeed TnL, on the second run i only hit 69 speed (should have hit 70). so i checked and rechecked again and again the speed EV count up to TnL, and still count 28 total. 28 + 12 = 40, which based on both online calculators (i use psypokes) AND my own manual math should yield 70 speed.

just to be sure, this is the math:

Code: Select all

stat = int((int((A*2+B+int(C/4))*D/100)+5)*E)

A = base stat = 60
B = IV = 26
C = EV total = 40
D = Level = 38
E = Nature multiplier = 1.1 (boosting)

int((int((60*2+26+int(40/4))*38/100)+5)*1.1) =

int((int((120+26+10)*38/100)+5)*1.1) =

int((int(156*38/100)+5)*1.1) =

int((int(5928/100)+5)*1.1) =

int((int(59.28)+5)*1.1) =

int((59+5)*1.1) =

int(64*1.1) =

int(70.4) =

70
like not like you ppl can't do math but just wanted to make sure it was all correct. i took that formula from upokecenter, and it matches the formula on bulbapedia (lel). i used the same formula on my own excel stat chart, and it's never steered me wrong before, so i'm pretty confused.

the only other difference between the two runs is when i used the carbos--in the first run i waited until the repel menu after aqua hideout on the way to mossdeep (so i was L37), and in the second run i used it in the menu before norman, just before i desert candied to L30. still, given the way stats are calculated, it shouldn't matter when you use carbos as long as you level up at least once after doing so, which i did in both cases. i even used it wayyyy earlier in the case that it seemed not to have applied.
Last edited by G_heinz on Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:52 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Dabomstew
Site Admin
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:26 am

Re: What's new in saf

Post by Dabomstew » Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:43 am

I have no idea of the exact routing for exp/levels but if you hit 38 before Xatu in the second run that could be it, if that isn't the case then ignore this post, I have no further clues.

User avatar
G_heinz
Pokémon Trainer
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: What's new in saf

Post by G_heinz » Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:59 am

...based dabom FailFish

thx

the lesson to learn is: ALWAYS candy AFTER doduo, even if you get L34 before the gym.

User avatar
G_heinz
Pokémon Trainer
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: What's new in saf

Post by G_heinz » Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:50 am

new archie 2 strats: http://pastebin.com/Aw22fRay

tested them in a run today and they worked beautifully...except i didn't get hit into torrent, so i had to get +3, failed to OHKO sharpedo, and got killed to slash crit. however the strat is, imo, much better than the previous strategy.

x special buy should now be 9-10 imo. 10 is safest, as it gives you an extra on winona and archie without making you have to yolo steven. the money gained from timmy helps as well; however, if you had a good cave and an early flyer, you'll have to skimp a bit.

pirateluck
Preschooler
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:58 pm

Re: What's new in saf

Post by pirateluck » Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:25 am

good stuff :) some comments though

Leading with a slave allows you to start of without a drop in attack but either way, HP fighting needs one swagger (greater than +1 attack) to ohko sharpedo so no real benefit for the HP kips. Of course,for other kips +2 mudshot is needed so I'm probably going off context here. I also realised that the range for the crobat is 50% for the 10603 kip (30iv special) so I'm thinking we might as well go +4 special and go for a ohko surf on sharpedo if mightyena doesn't give swagger (this way we don't need to lead with slave too). The range was calculated using smogon calc so I could be missing things out

I was pretty annoyed when the take down (15% chance of miss) missed on the slave hence the suggestion. Also, some time saved on not switching the slave to the front.

this strat is gonna be a major burden on our shopping so we might need more ways to get more $$. A torrent water gun on cindy/winston zig kills 100% and give 90 exp + $1400 + 1 spd ev so this could be a strat to consider; of course we could just pick cash items Kappa

User avatar
G_heinz
Pokémon Trainer
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: What's new in saf

Post by G_heinz » Thu Jun 18, 2015 6:59 pm

fair point about hp fighting, if it's true that they ohko sharpedo at +1.

as far as money goes, in my run yesterday, i had enough for 10 x specials, and that's with buying an extra repel in slateport bc i had early flyer. of course a slower kip would need to buy more x speeds as well (7 instead of 6), which is why i favor the highest speed possible. Also, fighting timmy gives $224 as well, which isn't much but does help a bit.

for 10603:

- 25% to OHKO at +1 in torrent
- 100% to OHKO at +2 in torrent
- 81.25% to OHKO at +3 out of torrent

if you're getting hp up to sell, money shouldn't be too much of a problem. not to mention you technically have overheat to sell as well (which we don't typically sell anymore), and that would be faster than cindy--unless you absolutely need the speed EV. so if you eat too far into your money with the fallarbor buy, then overheat can make that up in lavaridge so you don't have to skimp on heal powders/energy roots. that's why i would favor running 29+IV+, as it only needs one extra speed EV + timmy + carbos.

User avatar
G_heinz
Pokémon Trainer
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: What's new in saf

Post by G_heinz » Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:01 pm

wanted to update this thread since i haven't shared anything new (outside of twitter FrankerZ ) for like a month. i'll try splitting it up into sections.

the state of hp fighting

to start, i don't think the hp fighting kips are as good as i used to think they were. consider their stats:

10602 | Lonely 30/29/18/18/14/24
10603 | Lonely 24/18/14/30/30/20

while by "old standards" (i.e. resetting for kips at random i.e. playing russian roulette) they are quite good, there are a few key drawbacks for each kip.

10602 is by far the better of the two. its atk means it ohko's machop even on L27 (i.e. w/o early candy), and its def means it lives facade x2 even on L29 (i.e. w/o late candy). its speed is fine, and its spdef+HP IVs means it highly likely lives a solarbeam from full. however, its spatk is just barely runnable (17IV is the minimum to guarantee the ohko on roxanne's geodude), giving it trouble in some of the late game fights which utilize surf more heavily. in particular, winona, tnl, and archie 2. not a small con.

10603 is just all around shittier. its spatk is great, but its mile-high spdef is unnecessary at best. 20IVN speed, while good, is not good enough, as it speedties archie 1's sharpedo without an extra level. and crucially, although 18IV+atk is a far cry from unrunnable, it cannot benefit from the best strats that +atk has to offer.

combine all this with the fact that hp fighting saves 15s at best, and i'm just not interested in putting the game on either of these kips' backs.

hasty strats

in my pb i manip for a hasty mudkip with a very high spe IV. this changes quite a few things throughout the run for the better, but does have its fair share of drawbacks:

14528 | Hasty 13/30/25/29/16/29

the best +speed strats require a minimum of 26IV+spe, as you will be able to naturally outspeed tnl with 12 extra speed EVs. besides route 114 carbos, the other 2 can either be obtained by ko'ing 2 wild encounters that grant speed EVs (zigzagoon, taillow, wingull, skitty, zubat, electrike), or 1 wild encounter + fighting youngster timmy, the optional trainer just before rival 2 (he has an electrike).

obviously on its face the decision seems simple: a wild encounter is clearly faster than fighting a whole optional trainer with 3 pokes, so you should fight two wilds. however, this is problematic for a few reasons. to start, wild speed EVs are not exactly a breeze to come by. most that could give you the EV are something you want to catch, so you won't be trying to faint them, and what's more, they are not a free ohko until route 116 (torrent WG). and while zubat are a dime a dozen in granite cave, it's only really safe to faint L7 (L8 is iffy), as anything higher could live even a torrent WG and confuse you, at which point you either risk potentially knocking yourself out, or running and having wasted that time completely.

in addition, the only really feasible +speed kips i've found are hasty, meaning -def, meaning you will oftentimes need late candy in order to survive facade x2. late candy requires 939 extra exp, and timmy can provide 781 of that xp. however, even 14528 doesn't really NEED late candy (only dies to facade with two max rolls from full on L29), so why fight timmy?

the reason actually sucks. the truth is that on 14528 (29IV+spe), you will have 30 speed on L18, which is the magic number to avoid for may 2's grovyle. consider:

grovyle = 45 speed
marshtomp = 30 speed (45 speed at +1)

you could theoretically skip x speed on 30 speed, but after the first mud shot, you would be speedtied with grovyle (MS would drop her to (2/3)*45 = 30 speed). if you lost the speedtie, you would die.

however, if you use x speed, you are speedtied with her before the first mud shot. in this case, you must lose the first speedtie, or else she will heal off the damage you do with absorb. if you win the first speedtie, you likely lose (unless you crit her).

thus, for many of these high speed mudkips, fighting timmy is a necessity, as it gives L19 and 31 speed, allowing you to skip x speed entirely. another benefit of L19 is a better chance to 2hko grovyle, which is sometimes questionable on neutral attack.

other benefits of +speed strats are as follows:

- can use the x speed on wattson, eliminating the chance to get confused
- outspeed brooke's wingull (can't be supersonic'd again after you heal it off)
- outspeed archie 2's crobat at +1 (only 29+IV+)

below are some other mudkips i found that could use +speed strats:

10536 | Hasty 5/30/22/28/21/26
15728 | Hasty 8/31/16/27/14/30
15823 | Hasty 17/28/29/30/7/26

the best of +atk strats

after my hasty run, i saw buster running one very particular mudkip:

9829 | Lonely 6/29/31/25/24/24

as you may have noticed, the main routing differences between these different mudkips largely hinges on when to use the desert candy--that is, either before dewford gym to guarantee the MS range on machop, or just before norman to guarantee your survival of facade x2. thus, there are a few things to note about this kip:

- already ohko's machop on L27 (guaranteed on 27+IV+)
- already survives facade x2 on L29

being that it requires neither of those two primary benefits, i thought about the secondary benefits of each candy strat.

- early candy gives L29 for zangoose
- late candy gives L33 for mt. pyre zubat and L34 for swablu

given that its atk is already amazing, it probably doesn't need L33 for the second mt. pyre zubat (pretty small benefit anyway), so i figured zangoose was better to focus on. however, i realized L29 would also be highly beneficial for the linoone fight, as with this high of attack, it turns out to be fairly favorable to 3hko (basically impossible on any other atk or level).

so it turns out that with 462 extra exp in the cave, you can do what i would call "mid-candy" strats--that is, reach L28 off the petalburg gym delcatty, and candy to L29 before linoone. while the extra exp farming takes time, it's worth getting if abra isn't cooperating, and there are plenty of places you could get it even after granite cave. what's more, if you somehow only get enough for early candy, you still get the biggest benefit of the strat, which is L29 for zangoose. as well, all three candy strats give L30 for norman's vigoroth, guaranteeing +6 mud shot on neutral attack (+5 on the best +atk strats), which is the ultimate purpose of desert candy.

keep in mind too that 9829 is female, making it quite possibly one of the most competitive kips to run the game with.

summary of desert candy

the nitty-gritty candy details then, are as follows:

"standard" cave exp: L16+27xp (2562 total exp)

desert candy always gives L30 for vigoroth, which:
- guarantees +6 MS on all runnable attack
- guarantees +5 MS on 27+IV+atk
- guarantees +3 HP fighting for 10602/3
- lets 20IVN speed outspeed (note: don't ever run less than 21IVN speed lmao)

early candy [L27 > L28]
- requires 189 extra exp
- gives L28 for machop (guarantees MS ohko on all runnable attack)
- gives L29 for zangoose (improves chances for MS 2hko)

mid-candy [L28 > L29]
- requires 462 extra exp
- gives L29 for linoone (good chance for MS 3hko on 27+IV+atk)
- gives L29 for zangoose (improves chances for MS 2hko)

late candy [L29 > L30]
- requires 939 extra exp
- gives L30 for norman's first slaking (always live facade x2)
- gives L33 for second mt. pyre zubat (guarantees strength range on higher attack)
- gives L34 for swablu (can evolve beforehand to guarantee surf range if you remain in torrent after evolving, which isn't likely)

that's all for now, but in the near future (hopefully after i complete a good run with 9829) i will be working to route +spatk (not very optimistic for its benefits) and probably revisiting +speed strats so i can really weigh all the pros and cons of each. hoping this encourages some new runners to pick up the game.
Last edited by G_heinz on Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Keizaron
Site Admin
Posts: 273
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:13 pm
Location: Spokane, WA
Contact:

Re: What's new in saf

Post by Keizaron » Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:13 am

Good write up. I'm still of the mind that it's going to be down to preference, since each 'kip has their set of drawbacks. When I go back, unless something major has been found, I will probably continue HP Fighting 'kips if only for the ease of getting one.

User avatar
G_heinz
Pokémon Trainer
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: What's new in saf

Post by G_heinz » Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:00 pm

i guess i should have been more thorough :P my point about 9829 is that it's essentially 10602 but better. but yeah i mean, either of the hp fighting kips is still equally competitive right now. i actually prefer hasty overall because it's safer on wattson and brooke. but i think it's going to come down to which kip is easiest to grind out runs with, since eventually people will reach a point when aiming for general clusters isn't good enough.

EDIT: also i'm trying to emphasize that not all drawbacks are equal. a kip like 9829 has virtually no drawbacks for its nature. 10602/3 both have significant enough issues that at least need to be addressed in some way by the runner.

User avatar
G_heinz
Pokémon Trainer
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: What's new in saf

Post by G_heinz » Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:49 pm

just wanted to update this thread for the future reference of those who may come after me. with what we currently know about the game and the current best strats at our disposal to face that, i believe the following is the kip to rule all kips:

15823 | Hasty 17/28/29/30/7/26

it is unique for a few reasons:

- its def+HP IVs allow it to forgo late candy, which means it can instead candy early (the best-case scenario for a neutral atk kip). this is good bc it requires 750 less exp (= can skip timmy).
- its speed IV is 3 lower than 14528, meaning it is only 29 speed at L18. this, combined with the above bullet, means that it not only can skip timmy, but must (L19 gives 30 speed), whereas all +speed kips faster than it have no choice but to fight timmy, regardless of whether or not their defenses require late candy for slaking, and any +speed kip slower than it (say 22-25IV) needs too many extra EVs for +speed tnl strats (an additional 4 for every IV slower). this means that while it must x speed on may 2, it still qualifies for every other relevant +speed benefit (x speed on wattson, outspeed wingull, outspeed tnl w/ just 12 extra speed EVs).

it has its drawbacks, notably its atk and spdef, but there are ways to mitigate these issues. in particular, teaching dive early means that even first turn solarbeam charge (on the turn you x special) can't end the run, as you can dive (on lunatone, as +1 dive vs. solrock knocks it into heal range) before surf spam. otherwise, it is definitely ohko'd from full by a solarbeam.

its atk introduces two notable ranges: L22 +1 strength vs. roselia and L32 +2 strength vs. grovyle are both 15/16 ranges. 29IV neutral attack guarantees both of these, but unfortunately the next mudkip on the list with at least 29IV atk that meets the other criteria (i.e. exactly 26IV+spe and can survive facade x2 on L29) is 58424 | Hasty 26/29/12/28/24/26, and the only single-segment naives with 29+IV atk that could run such strats are 65211 | Naive 27/31/23/26/22/26 and 76112 | Naive 9/31/30/29/17/26, all well past the range of reasonable reset length.

as an aside, it's worth noting that 27IV+spe can run the exact same strats, but with a caveat: not only does it not require any wild speed EVs to use +speed tnl strats (only needs 8, so just carbos would suffice), but it actually CANNOT get any wild speed EVs pre-rival 2. this is because you have 3 speed EVs going into that fight (may 1's treecko, calvin's zigzagoon, and museum zubat), and a fourth gives you 30 speed at L18. this would be fine if it just meant that you could completely avoid granite cave zubat encounters (generally a pain in the ass to ohko and shit exp yield anyway), but it's problematic bc all the best early hm slave options (zigzagoon, taillow, and wingull) give speed EVs, so in the event that you crit one in an attempt to damage it before capture, the run is over. 26IV+spe, on the other hand, requires 8EV total for 30 speed at L18, and it's pretty unlikely that you could get 5 wild speed EVs before slateport even if you tried.

full (altho rough) notes for this kip can be found here: http://pastebin.com/wwBbig81

in closing, of course this is not the only mudkip that can complete the run effectively, but as i highly favor +speed strats for the assorted benefits (combined with the fact that early desert candy basically mitigates neutral attack from the midgame forward), i wanted to write up why i think this kip is the best kip for the job. provided the game keeps fucking all my 9829 attempts (quite likely), i will probably just sack up and exclusively run this kip until i'm satisfied with my time.

Locked

Return to “Pokémon Ruby/Sapphire”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests