Spinner loading tiles and directions

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Exarion
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Spinner loading tiles and directions

Post by Exarion » Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:20 am

I discovered something useful about spinners today. Not sure if this is already known:

Spinners are loaded facing the same direction every time. For example, Hiker Trent is always loaded facing up. When a spinner is loaded, they cannot spin for a certain number of frames (I believe the number is 32). Spinners are loaded 7 tiles away when you approach them from below, and they're loaded 9 tiles away when you approach from above/left/right.

This explains why the first spinner on Route 111 can never hit you if you have perfect movement. She is loaded facing left on the 7th tile below her, and the Mach Bike at full speed travels 7 tiles in 28 frames. This also explains why certain spinners, such as Wilton and Lucas, sometimes hit you with perfect movement. They are loaded from 9 tiles away (i.e., not from below), and the Mach Bike at full speed travels 9 tiles in 36 frames.

I'm not sure how often a spinner can spin after 32 frames, and how likely each spin is, and this information would be helpful in determining whether "YOLO passes" on Wilton and Lucas are worthwhile. These spinners can be manipulated with running, but this takes 2-4 seconds because you have to get off the bike.

EDIT: Fixed numbers after the initial post. They should be correct now.
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Re: Spinner loading tiles and directions

Post by Mountebank » Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:38 am

I looked into this a bit, and from what I can tell, there are 3 types of spinners with regard to timing:

Type A: 32, 64, 96, 128
Type B: 32, 64, 128, 192
Type C: 32, 48, 64, 80

When a spinner calculates a new direction, they will randomly choose a number of frames to wait from the four values corresponding to their type. Thus, all spinners have a 1/4 chance of turning in 32 frames. Note that a new direction can also result from taking a running step.

With regard to spinner direction, I think every spinner has exactly 4 possible directions they can face (possibly with duplicates). For example, if a spinner can only face left and right, then it is probably the case that two of the four direction values are equal to left and the other two direction values are equal to right. If a spinner has 3 possible directions, then one of them is duplicated and will occur with 1/2 probability while the other two are 1/4. Note that the new direction can be equal to the old one: whenever a new direction is calculated, the current state is not taken into account at all. I suspect that this 4-direction structure maps really nicely to direction recalculations from running, but that is yet to be confirmed.
Last edited by Mountebank on Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Spinner loading tiles and directions

Post by G_heinz » Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:57 am

definitely did not know this. was familiar with the 32-frame figure, and we have long known which spinners could still turn on perfect movement and which couldn't, but no sense of why. my current repel strat for setting up bike movement past wilton was designed so that you could pick back up to full speed again before he loaded (if the repel wears off late he's already on screen and you have to gain momentum again), but i didn't know that all spinners approached from the right load 9 tiles away. does this have to do with the dimensions of the overworld camera? i.e., that the width is more tiles than the height.

either way, very good to know. i suspect that the exact specifics are somewhat a moot point by now, if only for the fact that you don't have any control over the direction from which you pass most of these spinners. however it would be interesting to know which spinners fall in which of mountebank's categories, as there is potentially a more optimal movement path around certain spinners that may maximize the chance of the spinner not turning (i.e., minimize the number of leftover frames). not sure which spinners this would apply to that can't already be manipulated, however. as ex pointed out, wilton and lucas can be manipulated 100% of the time by getting off the bike, but unfortunately neither can be passed from a different direction, so such manipulation seems to be the only way of getting them to cooperate 100% of the time.

tbh, only spinners in the game anymore that i think are still very annoying to deal with are birdkeeper chester (colin's a bastard too but can be manipulated like janice), beauty jessica, and the grunt in seafloor cavern. trent and bryce are honestly so consistent lately that i almost don't think they would be worth it to try and manipulate, and don't think they can be anyway (bryce is like janice and colin, but the bike movement seems more consistent than if you were to bother getting off and doing the run manip).

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Re: Spinner loading tiles and directions

Post by Amoeba » Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:06 am

The spinners loading in the same direction and being spin-locked has been known, but mostly intuitively, for a bit. The actual frame data is going to be super helpful though. Potentially stupid question, how did you find where/when spinners are loaded?
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Re: Spinner loading tiles and directions

Post by G_heinz » Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:34 am

think mounte did it w frame advance in vba-rr.

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Re: Spinner loading tiles and directions

Post by Exarion » Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:16 am

I did raw testing. I waited until the spinner spun on tile 6, then biked to tile 7/8/9/10, then biked back to tile 6 so that I could see if the spinner had maintained its spun position. If yes, the spinner must not have deloaded. I found that on tile 8 approaching from below, and tile 10 approaching from above/left/right, the spinner never maintained its spun position.

As I showed on stream tonight, Cooltrainer Wilton can now be manipulated with a faster method. Rather than getting off the bike and running, just bike down until he's deloaded (8 tiles below him and 1 tile to his left), then bike up until you pass him. This takes 40-48 frames, depending on how safe you want your biking to be, rather than the 90-180 frames it takes to run past him.
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Re: Spinner loading tiles and directions

Post by Exarion » Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:19 am

Mountebank wrote:Note that the new direction can be equal to the old one: whenever a new direction is calculated, the current state is not taken into account at all.
So at 32 frames, a two-direction spinner would have a 1/8 chance of spinning, right? Because 1/4 to select a new direction at 32 frames and 1/2 that the direction is not the current one?
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Re: Spinner loading tiles and directions

Post by Amoeba » Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:40 pm

Ooo, I'll need to test whether that Wilson manip is faster for emerald, 'cause the repel wears out just below him. Might still be worth it to run, what with the mach acceleration.

EDIT: Okay, so a bit of slaphazard testing shows that the original Wilson manip is faster in emerald provided your repel wears off within 7 tiles of Wilson's line of sight. Past that and the new manip is faster.
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Re: Spinner loading tiles and directions

Post by werster » Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:22 am

Is there a list of which spinners are Type C and which aren't?

I'm thinking about something like always passing between frames 32 and the next threshold (64 or 48), 48 would still be possible just harder reaction time.

For someone like say Wilton right (using him as an example since he's been used before, would be thinking other spinners though), you could waste 1-2 tiles on the Mach Bike, and see if he's spun, if not then you can go through without any danger since it'd be frame 44 and he didn't spin on 32, so it's clear (and if he did, go down and reload from below to ensure it)

The reaction time/execution would take some practice, but based off the data I'm seeing here it seems possible? And very possible if the window is 32 frames (8 tiles)

Edit: Something like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvXrWfNbw-M

Edit 2: Also, since Mach Bike goes 16 --> 8 --> 4, couldn't you manip any spinner with running shoes , even if it's 2 tiles away, put on Mach Bike within a few frames, and use it to get by everytime? Thinking someone like Ethan, Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUu5y3u68vo
Last edited by werster on Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:05 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Spinner loading tiles and directions

Post by Amoeba » Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:39 am

I'm not at my console to check, but biking exactly 1 tile away and then back, and then reacting if the spinner has spun sounds like a nightmare. That strat certainly should be feasible for the type A and B spinners though. Testing which type each spinner is wouldn't be too hard, but a bit tedious. I might try a few key ones out tomorrow to see, if a list doesn't appear in the mean time.
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Re: Spinner loading tiles and directions

Post by Exarion » Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:37 am

That running into biking stat is brilliant. Two potential snags:
1) How many frames does the bike mounting animation take?
2) How quickly can we press Select after reaching the desired tile to mount the bike?

I'm not sure about #1, but the problem with #2 is that you can't buffer movement inputs like you can in Gens 1 and 2. So you can't press Select during the 8 frames it takes to run to the desired tile. If #1 plus #2 = at least 8 frames, the method doesn't work any better than walking.
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Re: Spinner loading tiles and directions

Post by Amoeba » Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:28 am

Exarion wrote: 1) How many frames does the bike mounting animation take?
2) How quickly can we press Select after reaching the desired tile to mount the bike?
Number 1 is 3 frames, not that it's really an animation. You just stand there for 2 frames after pressing select them -magic- you're on the bike. Its like the pokemon equivalent of an old spice advert. The second appears to be as soon as you stop the animation from walking/running/whatever on to the desired tile, so provided your timing is good its should only take 3 frames, though in practice its likely to be a little more.

Edit: Werster, that second one should work, and holy shit its a good idea. The first one doesn't so anything extra from exarion's manip anyway, because when you bike down the 8 tiles you unload him, which resets when he can spin. (Unless I'm not following exactly what you did, but it looked like you biked an extra 2 tiles before you did the actual manip.)

Edit2: Nevermind I understood what you did in the first video. And the fact that you don't have to do it right on top of the spinner makes it far more feasible (I had it in my head last night that you'd do the extra 2 tiles right before the spinner, so you'd have precise movement and then have one frame to react).
Last edited by Amoeba on Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Spinner loading tiles and directions

Post by werster » Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:45 am

No no Ameoba, the first one was just to show that you have enough reaction time to do the backup strat to go down even with the time waste. If he doesn't spin in that time (the 32 framer only), I wouldn't go down, I would go straight up through seeing that it's clear and he has no chance to spin.

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Re: Spinner loading tiles and directions

Post by Amoeba » Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:49 am

Dammit didn't get my edit in in time. But yeah, they're both really good strats, and fuck me the implication that there are effectively no spinners in gen3 now is amazing. Emerald still suffers from a handful of double spinners but other than that Kreygasm
Man I love spinner manip.

Edit: Once again hasty with my thoughts, there are spinners that don't face away when you run at them, these ones can't be maniped at all. Still reduces the spinner field a ton though.
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Re: Spinner loading tiles and directions

Post by Exarion » Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:40 am

I think you might miss sometimes that 4-frame window to get on the bike, but there's no downside to going for it (if you hit Select too early, you just walk; if you press Select too late, you bike past the spinner on frame 32+). Plus you usually need to get back on the bike after you complete a manip anyway.

Spinners that run-into-bike manip works for (Sapphire):
- Brice
- Timmy (second pass)
- Colin
- Jessica

Spinners that run-into-bike manip works for (Emerald):
- Trent
- Angelina (second pass)
- Brice
- Timmy (second pass)
- Colin
- Jessica
- Marcel (second pass)
- Kristin (first pass)

Keep in mind that all of these spinners can be passed 100% by walking/biking if you react within 15 frames. This is not too difficult to execute in a run, but it has two downsides:
1) With no manip, you often have to wait for them to spin away, which wastes time.
2) Reaction time is more difficult to practice than manipulation.
Last edited by Exarion on Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Spinner loading tiles and directions

Post by Amoeba » Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:58 am

(Unfortunately) it only works on Marcel on the 2nd pass, and on Kritstin on the 1st pass. Lillycove spinners are shit.
It should work for timmy on both passes, though normally on the 2nd pass you're at full mach bike speed, so I guess you could weigh up the time loss of slowing down compared to the 1/8 chance of getting quickspun. (I think 1/8 is right, if I've made sense of mounte's post. 1/4 chance to spin on frame 32, 1/4 chance he choses to spin right, 1/4 chance he choses to spin to the other direction that is assigned to right)

Edit: hurr you don't have the bike for the first Timmy pass.
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Re: Spinner loading tiles and directions

Post by Exarion » Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:11 pm

Thanks Amoeba, I fixed the list.

With regard to waiting and passing within 15 frames, I was having a very difficult time doing that yesterday in practice, even when I knew when spinner would spin via save states. We still need to do that with certain spinners (Chester, Marcel), but it seems clearly inferior to manipulation.
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Re: Spinner loading tiles and directions

Post by werster » Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:44 pm

Well, the only spinner I would consider doing the Type 1 for (there's enough room and isn't manipulated in a better albeit less than a second slower way) is Chester, and I can confirm he is a Type C. So, damn. Still possible but your reaction time window is smaller than just waiting normally, and that's hard enough already, so no point.

Also Seafloor Cavern Grunt can be added to the list for Run --> Bike

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Re: Spinner loading tiles and directions

Post by Exarion » Thu Apr 02, 2015 6:23 pm

I didn't add the Seafloor Cavern Grunt because you have to turn immediately after getting on the bike, which I believe is an unavoidable 4-frame loss. So 4+8+16+3 (adding 3 for the animation) means you have a 1-frame window to pass him before he can spin on frame 32. Probably the best approach for him is to use the standard running manipulation (bottom-right tile), then get on the bike and pass him on the right (frame 23-31) and then above (frame 35-43). He'd have one chance to hit you, but this would be faster than setting up a second manip. Considering that he's not a bad spinner to hit, and that 1-frame windows are ridiculously hard to hit at 60 fps, I think this is the fastest approach on average.
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Re: Spinner loading tiles and directions

Post by werster » Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:17 pm

Fair enough. I did the guy in testing and got past him 1/1 (terrible sample size, but setting this up is really hard) but then I also realised how much harder this will be on controller than on keyboard haha. I didn't think it was a 1 frame window, but you could be right

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Re: Spinner loading tiles and directions

Post by Amoeba » Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:23 am

werster wrote:but then I also realised how much harder this will be on controller than on keyboard haha.
That opens up a whole other discussion. I know I'd trust my movement far more on a gcn d-pad than on a keyboard, just because I'm used to it. (I tired the seafloor cavern grunt, and I seem to get it 7/10 times. Not too bad, but fucking it up isn't great obviously)
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