sapphire rng manipulation guide

Exarion
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Re: sapphire rng manipulation guide

Post by Exarion » Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:51 pm

Pirateluck's recent 2:07:25 run in Sapphire used Hidden Power strats, which are 100% consistent with RNG manipulation. These two Mudkips have Hidden Power Fighting with powers of 63 and 64, respectively:

10602 | Lonely 30/29/18/18/14/24
10603 | Lonely 24/18/14/30/30/20

Having a Fighting-type move makes Norman's gym much easier and has other benefits (more damage on Sharpedos, PP management). Unfortunately, a high-powered HP Fighting seems to be the only one worth getting in Sapphire, because the Hidden Power TM takes 40-45 seconds to get and teach, and you can't get it until the second Slateport trip. At this point, you're more than halfway through the Mudkip portion of the run.

In Emerald, however, Mudkip has to do a lot more battling after the second Slateport trip. You could get even more utility out of HP Fighting/Ground, or you could prefer HP Ice for Winona's gym and get the TM in Fortree (~5 seconds faster and $3000 saved). This would work in a marathon setting, or if we figured out trainer ID manip or switched to RTA for normal runs.
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MKDasher
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Re: sapphire rng manipulation guide

Post by MKDasher » Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:03 am

Amoeba wrote:
MKDasher wrote:I can share some luas with whoever wants them.
I'd appreciate this, especially the RAM Watch one.
Well I use RAM Watch to find the values and create some luas from it. The RAM addresses on this game varies each time you reset so you can't really keep a RAM Watch list.

I'll try to find the luas I used and send to you.

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G_heinz
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Re: sapphire rng manipulation guide

Post by G_heinz » Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:52 pm

as a potential alternative to hidden power fighting, we've discussed hp ground as well, given that it could be a fully accurate alternative to mud shot. hidden power has the same pp count and higher power, but of course does not drop the opponent's speed. while this is problematic on a few fights (delcatty and linoone in norman's gym), it otherwise saves time over mud shot due to skipping the speedfall animation/text, and depending on its power can guarantee ranges that mud shot otherwise would not.

this mudkip has hidden power ground 67, and is ironically from mountebank's original cluster:

11080 | Docile 23/30/13/26/6/23

some notes:
-100% to ohko brawly's machop
-unfavorable to 2hko delcatty
-100% to 3hko linoone (guard spec., not x def)
-always survive crit slash from dire hit zangoose; 100% to 2hko at any lv.
-1 x def is 100% safe for norman at any lv.
-100% to 2hko norman's first slaking at +4 after mud slap
-outspeed norman's vigoroth at lv.30; 100% to ohko at +4 on lv.30 (37.5% to ohko at +4 on lv.29)
-outspeed matt and shelly's mightyena

so the main benefits are that we can always ko the machop, save a turn on linoone, save 1-2 precious turns of setup (as well as the x attacks themselves) on norman, and save all the time on the speedfall animations.

things to consider:
-do we x speed on linoone to avoid flinchhax? this wastes a turn, but we still save time back on the speedfall text, and net the 3-shot.
-do we x speed on delcatty to avoid sleep/attract bs? a possible strat would be mud slap first turn, which would both improve our chances of getting a miss as well as net the 2hko with hidden power. in this case we would take x speed room.
-assuming most up-to-date shopping (hp up strats), if buying the extra repel, the escape rope, and an additional x speed for linoone (8 total), money is tight and only allows for 4-5 energy roots if you also buy 4 heal powders (definitely necessary). in this case, i would recommend selling charcoal, and it may be something we want to do across the board.

it's worth noting as well that the mudkip below has hp fighting 60:

11084 | Mild 9/24/8/14/18/24

as a potential norman strategy for this kip:
-skip x def
-setup x speed, 3 x attack
-heal to full before second hit on first slaking
-sweep

would take 2 more energy roots, but reduces the amount of setup and 1 x def never guarantees you anything on this kip. you can always survive facade from the last slaking as long as you're at full, and since you outspeed vigoroth, this isn't a problem.

we abandoned this original cluster for understandable reasons, but given the potential for the two above mudkips it might be worth giving a shot again.

EDIT: realized we would teach hidden power over water gun, not mud shot, meaning speed issues on linoone and delcatty wouldn't present. in any case overall i'm still of the view that hp ground is probably baaaarely worth it which means it probably isn't, but hp fighting is at least intriguing.

Exarion
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Re: sapphire rng manipulation guide

Post by Exarion » Sun Apr 05, 2015 6:52 am

Without doing any testing, I'm guessing 67-70 HP Ground and 60-70 HP Fighting make the 40-second detour worthwhile, but only barely. So I'm not sure we should revert to the original cluster just because of that, especially because that Mild is very fragile with only slightly above average attacking stats.
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G_heinz
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Re: sapphire rng manipulation guide

Post by G_heinz » Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:03 am

i agree. unfortunately i'm having shit luck even hitting 10602 or 10603, and the surrounding kips there don't make much of a cluster either.

Keizaron
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Re: sapphire rng manipulation guide

Post by Keizaron » Fri May 15, 2015 8:27 am

So what would the route be like with the 10602/3?

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G_heinz
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Re: sapphire rng manipulation guide

Post by G_heinz » Fri May 15, 2015 8:17 pm

three less x attacks (pretty sure it's favorable to ohko vig on those kips at +3, definitely guaranteed at +4). but basically to get hidden power you have to talk to the guy standing in front of the tree on route 111, he'll give you secret power, then a new vendor will appear in slateport selling TMs and you buy hidden power from him on your way back through from flannery to brawly.you can teach it over mud slap or water gun, but the latter is probably better because a) you can still do mud slap strats on norman that way, and b) because those kips are lonely (one of them with very high attack), you're favorable to ohko machop with mud shot, so you won't require water gun for that fight. doing desert candy strats improves those odds even more. not to mention the fact that you could also just postpone teaching it until after brawly anyway so it's actually not even an issue.

so getting hidden power costs time and $3000, but saves several turns through all of petalburg gym, not to mention makes it that much safer in the process, and the money you save from not buying 3 more x attacks + money you could get from selling secret power (if you had to) will easily pay for it.

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G_heinz
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Re: sapphire rng manipulation guide

Post by G_heinz » Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:18 am

about "variance":

in practicing this form of rng manipulation, many runners have experienced what mountebank called "variance" where they get a kip with stats that seem to correspond to no candidates near the mudkip they were aiming for, despite knowing that their timing was not that far off. he said something to the effect that this variance might amount to as many as 10 frames in some cases, and was caused by the rng advancing unpredictably, i.e. because the random function was called. he posited that this could be due to some kind of overworld phenomena, such as npc movement, etc.

while i still can't confirm if that's true, i can confirm something else that clearly affects variance/calls random: the title screen.

i did two attempts back to back for mudkip 15823. since you have to wait a while for this mudkip (~1m50s before new game), i let the entire opening cinema play and stayed on the title screen until approx. 1m40s. both attempts gave me a mudkip that i could not find in close proximity, but i eventually identified them as 15906 | Calm 12/21/10/5/25/26 and 15913 | Mild 11/1/15/27/20/31, both ~80 "frames" late.

i think the reason we failed to identify this thus far is that a lot of commonly run kips (hp fighting, 9829) have very short reset length, so since you have to start new game so soon anyway most people advance immediately to the continue screen as a matter of habit.

not that it matters but i imagine the reason why it happens is because of the bubbles floating on the title screen over kyogre's silhouette. the pattern probably calls on random to generate.

i don't know to what extent the opening cinema might affect the rng advancement, but if you press 'a' in a certain window you can proceed past the movie before it even first starts. then just advance past the title screen as quick as you can.

but yeah, so while it's still possible that other things contribute to the variance, there's at least a huge one, especially if you're resetting for a kip that's farther out.

Exarion
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Re: sapphire rng manipulation guide

Post by Exarion » Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:01 pm

Good find. I always mashed past the title screen just in case, and it's good to know that the RNG advances differently there.
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lanbobyonson
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Re: sapphire rng manipulation guide

Post by lanbobyonson » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:01 pm

I think this might be obvious but I think this might be near impossible on emulator (non-TAS of course).

Straight from the wiki:
"VisualBoyAdvance-M. VBA-M is the best GBA emulator that we're aware of, but note that timings and lag may not be perfectly accurate."

It just hasn't been said yet in this thread at least so I thought I would say it considering I've been trying to get a perfect mudkip on an emulator for however long now so I can practice, and I've been failing. I'm just gonna try and go for a good fighting type hidden power mudkip for practice now.

For further proof even though it's probably not needed I play with the frame rate shown in the top and I've noticed that the frame rate, for me at least, drops to as low as 30 sometimes for a second or so. This happens especially in the truck, when the tv's flashing, when scenes are playing out, and even on the new game screen so just playing perfectly from the start of the game from a certain time wouldn't even work. But maybe it's just me and some people can get 60 fps 100% consistently so they'd be able to use an emulator some way.

But I mean, this might even explain the huge variance for some people ... I'm not sure how many people have been trying this on emulator. Just, who knows might've been something people read this thread overlooked. I know I did. OpieOP

P.S. If you do get a perfect mudkip on emulator give me the save pls. ;)

Exarion
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Re: sapphire rng manipulation guide

Post by Exarion » Sat Jan 09, 2016 2:14 am

As I understand it from recent discussions with MKDasher, there are about 8 frames of variance that are tied to your trainer AI, which is generated in the truck cutscene, and about 20 frames of variance from NPC movements, some of which cannot be observed by the player. The ID variance can be controlled by manipulating your ID or measured by checking your ID, but the NPC movements cannot be controlled. I don't think these methods have been tested or specifically observed in runs, but in theory, they should allow the variance to be reduced but not removed.
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