Ruby Discussion

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xxxAceBlade
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Ruby Discussion

Post by xxxAceBlade » Wed Sep 10, 2014 12:49 am

Thought I'd open this up cuz I wanna be different (#hipster)

My biggest issue is the endgame, I couldn't find a way to get groudon through the E4, does anyone have any ideas?
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Re: Ruby Discussion

Post by Amoeba » Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:50 pm

xxxAceBlade wrote:I couldn't find a way to get groudon through the E4, does anyone have any ideas?
Don't use him. Swampert is likely more suited to the task if groudon is struggling that badly.
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Re: Ruby Discussion

Post by shark » Thu Sep 11, 2014 6:13 pm

http://pastebin.com/kBENQqJ4

that's a little paste werster made ages ago that details differences between sister games, if you look at r/s it says 'groudon ends up losing time on the elite four'.

this implies that when he made that paste, he did find a route for using groudon, so there probably is something that works and is faster than swampert.

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Re: Ruby Discussion

Post by Amoeba » Thu Sep 11, 2014 6:21 pm

If emerald has taught me anything, its not to rely on any statements made by other runners without testing them myself. A fair bit of stuff werster said/assumed about emerald was wrong. Not because he specifically stated incorrect stuff I think, just presumed something that ultimately wasn't right.
"Sapphire saves 7 turns/ 49 secs" sounds like a very off hand statement, I'd be very surprised if he did a decent job routing ruby, just checked enough to know that sapphire is faster, because that's all he needed to do.
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Re: Ruby Discussion

Post by xxxAceBlade » Thu Sep 11, 2014 6:47 pm

groudon's base attack is fucking high, with some x attacks we could probs smash our way through.

Maybe a solution would be to split the E4 between groudon and swampert?
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Re: Ruby Discussion

Post by Dabomstew » Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:22 pm

STAB EQ from your 150 base Attack and sun-boosted Fire Blast carry you through pretty much every fight except Drake pretty well. Even on the couple of fights that can hit you super effectively, you have plenty of bulk to survive the time required to setup to wreck house.

Unfortunately, Drake is a huge troll because of 4 Pokemon that are either Dragon/Flying or Dragon+Levitate. Underleveled Swampert wouldn't fare any better, so I'm not sure what you'd want to do there. Groudon does have Slash, but even off his Attack it takes a stupid amount of X Attacks (I want to say 5 or 6) to make that oneshot stuff, never mind Salamence having Intimidate to annoy you further.

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Re: Ruby Discussion

Post by luckytyphlosion » Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:59 pm

You could always revisit Lilycove to get Blizzard to teach to Swampert and use him for the Drake Fight (2 X speed, 2 X special?) or you could just Bulk-Up and Slash (or maybe Double-Edge TriHard), kind of like Dabomstew's Idea.

Or, you could just make a (blindish) Ruby only race, look at all the runner's strats, and figure out a route from there Kappa.
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Re: Ruby Discussion

Post by xxxAceBlade » Fri Sep 12, 2014 3:29 am

I rarely can actually do races tbh. This is the first game I've actually tried to route, and I'll link the rough pastebin I made for the E4 fights. Keep in mind that my ideas go off of soloing the entire E4 with groudon. Also, my x item setups are probably all innaccurate, it's just something I tossed together and haven't yet tested.

http://pastebin.com/PMdtUybE

just a quick note though, the sidney fight is meant to start like the archie 1 fight in Sapphire, by sending out ziggy first to take the attack drop and get a guard spec out.
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Re: Ruby Discussion

Post by luckytyphlosion » Fri Sep 12, 2014 3:47 am

Better to keep Fire Blast than Brick Break, because eq does same damage and Fire Blast can take care of the Cacturne and Shiftry. (possibly go special for the whole fight?)

None of the Pokemon in Phoebe's team have Levitate, and they don't have a (much) better defense stat than sp. def stat (like a 10 def diff for Sableye and a 2 def diff for Bannete), so you may need to change that.

Sun would help set up on Glacia (kill glalie to set up on Sealeo, that has weakened Surf), but hail causes surf and ice ball to do more, which makes it harder to setup.

Set up on Shelgon because it can waste turns with protect and doesn't have dragon dance (I'm pretty sure it won't rock tomb, but it may just to speed drop)

Skarmory you'd probably keep Fire Blast for it, Claydol gets strengthed.

I don't run this game so correct me if I'm mistaken.
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Re: Ruby Discussion

Post by Dabomstew » Fri Sep 12, 2014 5:50 am

What I came up with was (this includes everything Lucky said, since I was using RouteThree for the routing):

(this should be obvious, but bulk = Bulk Up, which is in Groudon's starting set. The only move I'd potentially teach would be Strength over Slash to speed up drake maybe.)

wallace - bulk*1 EQ*5 (milotic & maybe whiscash ranges on bad atk)
victory road scrubs - do whatever (EQ KOs most, except dumb claydol & sandslash)
wally - bulk*1, slash*2 altaria, EQ everything else (bulk gives you the altaria 2shot and removes a potential range on gardevoir)
sidney - get to +1 (intimidate sponge + guardspec + bulk*1 probably) then FB grass types and EQ others
phoebe - bulk*2 EQ all (at the very top end of +atk, can skip one bulk)
glacia - bulk*1-3 EQ spam + revive if dead (this is where not actually testing the AI behavior comes in to play. glalie can 2hit you with ice beam but i don't know if it will use it first turn on groudon or not. bulk*2 makes walrein killable and bulk*3 guarantees it, bulk*1 should always be gettable but means you will probably die+revive on walrein. walrein can OHKO an average groudon from FULL with blizzard)
drake - guardspec bulkx4 strength/EQ shelgon, xspeed bulkx0-2 on altaria then strength sweep (nothing we have OHKO's shelgon so we sacrifice a turn to be able to setup on it without fearing rock tomb. at +4 it dies to EQ and maybe to strength depending on our attack, then the rest are pretty much all ranges at +4. bulkx1 on altaria might be ideal since it gives you +5 for all but salamence and +4 for salamence. this one fight is where groudon loses most of its time compared to kyogre)
champion - bulk*2 FB skarmory (range), strengthx2 claydol and pray for no reflect, EQ the rest (bulks are to onehit cradily & armaldo, skarmory should be fine unless -spA)

this ignores fire blast accuracy (which is lol) but otherwise would work... in theory Keepo

edit: derp strength steven's claydol pls

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Re: Ruby Discussion

Post by xxxAceBlade » Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:26 pm

Thanks Dabomstew that's fucking awesome Kreygasm

What is this RouteThree that you're talking about? Is it a routing program or something?
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Re: Ruby Discussion

Post by shark » Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:54 pm

yes it is a routing program, check it out here https://github.com/Dabomstew/pokemon-routethree

-you will need to compile it yourself-

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Re: Ruby Discussion

Post by Amoeba » Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:13 pm

shark wrote:-you will need to compile it yourself-
Can someone please reveal how to complete this magical compiling to the computerly illiterate amongst us.
I-I'm asking for a friend I swear.
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Re: Ruby Discussion

Post by xxxAceBlade » Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:12 am

Amoeba wrote:
shark wrote:-you will need to compile it yourself-
Can someone please reveal how to complete this magical compiling to the computerly illiterate amongst us.
I-I'm asking for a friend I swear.
I back this up, I'm the friend he's asking for Kappa
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Re: Ruby Discussion

Post by Amoeba » Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:49 am

Just tested Dabomstew's strats for E4, and they mostly all hold up. Only things to add are that you should switch on Phoebe's first Dusclops if it uses Curse, on Glacia the lead Glalie uses Hail first turn, then Ice Beam, so as long as you don't get crit turn 2 you get 2 Bulk Ups off, which then just leaves you with the damage range on Walrein (which seems pretty favourable on the one Groudon I tested this with, Jolly natured). Drake is an arsehole, I had to set up 6 Bulk Ups to kill everything, the +4 atk you end up with after 5 bulk ups and intimidate created a damage range for me. So either get 4 bulk ups on shelgon, get a 5th on altaria and heal if you miss the range, or get 2 more on altaria. Steven strats seem to work, and Claydol seems to come out as the 2nd-to-last pokemon, so Reflect isn't the end of the world.

This is all completely based off of one Groudon though, would need more thorough testing to be sure, but it all seems to make sense as is.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that, in the one run I've done, T&L were absolute arseholes too. Didn't seem to play out anything like sapphire's fight, Solrock favoured Solarbeaming Swampert turn one as opposed to Sunny Day, and Lunatone's Psychic was OHKOing Castform. Maybe I just got unlucky but the natures of each pokemon weren't suggesting I'd have trouble with it, if it went how saph's would.
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Re: Ruby Discussion

Post by Dabomstew » Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:02 am

Read over Amoeba's "notes" on the wiki and they seem pretty solid apart from a minor things (Groudon doesn't need any X Specials, lol).

Does the 3rd Bulk Up on Steven allow you to onehit whatever comes out last through Reflect, or is it just for safety? Claydol itself needs like +6 to be onehit so I don't imagine it's for that...

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Re: Ruby Discussion

Post by Amoeba » Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:25 pm

Dabomstew wrote:(Groudon doesn't need any X Specials, lol).
Swampert does, the market notes are for the entire run :p

I honestly don't remember if Bulkx3 had a reason or if it was a typo because I was up late. I'm testing some more tonight and I'll let you know when I know.

And my "notes" were just so that I don't forget. I may write up some actual Ruby notes because for the most part it's just a cut and paste from Sapphire. The market route is almost identical, apart from I think the extra Guard Spec.

EDIT: Yeah, Steven only needs 2 BUs, and I just realised that the 3 x specials in the saph notes are all for kyogre, so yeah we don't need those either Kappa
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Re: Ruby Discussion

Post by werster » Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:37 am

I didn't read most of the topic, so apologies if this has already been posted. These are my notes notes from 2012 with Groudon, no idea how good they are but here you go. Also hahaha, that last line is literally in my notes, which makes the post hilarious (only read it halfway through writing this)

Wallace: Bulk Up + Slash, Earthquake, Earthqauke, Earthquake, Earthquake
Earthquake | Slash, Fire Blast, Earthquake | Fire Blast, Earthquake | Slash | Fire Blast, Earthquake, Slash + Slash, Earthquake, Earthquake
Sidney: Earthquake, Fire Blast, Earthquake, Earthquake, Fire Blast
Pheobe: 2 Bulk Ups: Earthquake, Fire Blast + Fire Blast, Earthquake, Fire Blast + Fire Blast, Earthquake
Glacia: Fire Blast, Bulk Up + Earthquake, Earthquake, Fire Blast, Earthquake + Earthquake
Drake: 2 Bulk Up: Earthquake, Slash + Slash, Slash + Slash, Earthquake, Slash + Slash
Steven: 3 Bulk Up: Fire Blast, Slash, Earthquake, Earthquake, Earthquake, Earthquake
These are all wrong I wrote them without even doing the battles, but it’s something like that.

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Re: Ruby Discussion

Post by Amoeba » Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:11 am

Ooo nice. They seem really similar to the ones we're using (thanks to dabomstew). Only things are that we just earthquake all of pheobe's pokes , I -think- you only need 2 bulk ups on steven, and I think you're earthquaking a flygon in the drake fight, which wont work :p
I thought we'd need to set up more bulk ups on Drake but what you have works much more nicely.
EDIT: lol wait it works if the salamence doesn't flamethrower. God this fight.
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Re: Ruby Discussion

Post by werster » Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:35 pm

I reckon I thought Banette had Levitate. Oh me. And yes to Drake too, I reckon I thought he had a Kingdra like in Emerald

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