Improved Crystal route

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Exarion
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Improved Crystal route

Post by Exarion » Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:53 am

I've sketched out a Crystal route that incorporates recent strat improvements. This is similar to werster's route, but the shopping is a lot different. I'll update this as others contribute to the route (hopefully in this thread): http://pastebin.com/3beGCLr4

Here are the main improvements (estimated time save in parentheses):

1. Getting Return instead of Earthquake (18 seconds)

This adds a second shopping trip but saves many turns. I've roughly calculated the time save here: http://pastebin.com/X7QNgB3Y

2. Surfing to Fuchsia from Blaine's gym rather than biking down Cycling Road (49 seconds)

This skips a trainer that takes 30 seconds, and the movement is 21 seconds faster. You have to buy 14 Super Repels, rather than 13 with a calculated YOLO through the grass below Viridian Forest, but this costs only a second. The remaining 1-second loss accounts for possibly being one level lower for Misty's Lapras, which is a favorable range at Lv. 56 and 57.

3. Skipping the second spinner in Sabrina's gym (7 seconds)

Werster's 3:19 run shows this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tz4c5bGjOi4

4. Increasing your chances of dodging any spinner except Douglas (~30 seconds)

Mountebank figured out the odds of a spinner turning to face a particular direction depend on the direction they're currently facing. This will likely allow us to dodge an extra spinner per run. This makes strats such as early Donald/Teru less appealing because it's more likely you'll hit no spinners before the Rare Candy. Details here: http://pastebin.com/2QCjptA1

TOTAL TIME SAVED: 1:44
Last edited by Exarion on Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Improved Crystal route

Post by zackcat » Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:17 am

dude nice.
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Re: Improved Crystal route

Post by Keizaron » Sun Mar 01, 2015 1:05 am


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Re: Improved Crystal route

Post by Exarion » Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:31 am

Would early Donald/Teru be worth it for PP management during the Rocket segment? Entr's PP route for Gold (http://pastebin.com/zcimNypy) only works in Crystal if we fight them early (or waste 3-5 seconds on NVE/SE text boxes with Bite). Also, being a lower level for the late game isn't as bad with current strats -- X Spec on Rival 5, X Acc on Koga, X Attack x2-3 on Blue, etc.
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Re: Improved Crystal route

Post by Exarion » Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:11 am

Refined the PP management for the Etherless route. I think it's the way to go if early Donald/Teru isn't too much of a time sink: http://pastebin.com/MVXVses1

Etherless changes the shopping for the entire route. The changes are included in my full notes: http://pastebin.com/3beGCLr4

Other changes to the notes:
- Swapping Return to slot 1 definitely seems slower. I'll be leaving it in slot 2 from now on.
- Use 2-3 X Attacks on Blue
- Use X Acc on Koga's Ariados only when taking Giga Drain damage isn't a problem
- Lead with Return on the Lv. 50 Dragonite unless you're Lv. 53, even if you have perfect Special and used 3 Calciums
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Re: Improved Crystal route

Post by Keizaron » Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:05 am

Early Donald/Teru doesn't bother me nearly as much as skipping the Calciums. Placebo effect or otherwise, I haven't had a single bad Red since Calcium strats (every run I've completed to Red so far had 12/12 at 6), and it seems like you have to go Calcium-less for Ether-less.

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Re: Improved Crystal route

Post by Exarion » Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:50 am

Keizaron wrote:Early Donald/Teru doesn't bother me nearly as much as skipping the Calciums. Placebo effect or otherwise, I haven't had a single bad Red since Calcium strats (every run I've completed to Red so far had 12/12 at 6), and it seems like you have to go Calcium-less for Ether-less.
Yeah, that's why I listed double 12s under the list of conditions for Etherless. Not sure about the Red fight AI, but when you already have good Special, the Calciums aren't as helpful for Clair's Dragonairs and Karen's Gengar, plus some other ranges that aren't as dangerous. And early D/T works best with good Special because Rival 3's Magnemite and Bayleef become very favorable ranges without an X Special.
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Re: Improved Crystal route

Post by Exarion » Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:13 am

Revised the route to always do early Donald/Teru and Etherless: http://pastebin.com/Xc8djj4S

I like this revision because it's still easy to buy Calciums (2 instead of 3) if you need them (i.e. you didn't have double 12s). You just need one of the following conditions to be met:

- 13-15 DV Speed (so don't need to buy an X Speed for Alakazam)
- Good Attack (so don't need to buy an extra X Attack for Blue; not sure where to set the DV threshold)
- Hit any spinner after first Goldenrod shopping trip
- Bought only 3 Super Potions in Olivine/Ecruteak

Early Donald/Teru is 15 seconds of extra movement and possibly an extra turn on the first Slowpoke. With good Attack, Headbutt is an unfavorable range to OHKO when you're Lv. 20. Early D/T gives you the following benefits:

- You can afford one extra Potion in Azalea, but one fewer Antidote. Two Antidotes is almost never a problem if you pick up the well Full Heal, which I do. The extra Potion makes it easier to skip the Ecruteak Mart, which saves 11 seconds.
- You don't have to X Special on Rival 3. This adds risk on the Magnemite (favorable range) and Bayleef (very favorable range to 2HKO), but it usually saves a turn on the Haunter (Curse+Surf kills) while reducing the chance you get paralyzed. Also, not taking damage from Haunter and being Lv. 25 for Bayleef makes it more likely you'll survive Curse damage + crit Razor Leaf. Also, using an X Special is very slow in this fight, because you're on the TMs menu when you enter it, and X Specials are 5+ slots down in your inventory.
- You can afford 2 X Attacks in Goldenrod. Even with good Attack, this is useful for Chuck, because you might want to switch out when Dynamicpunch hits, and a non-boosted Strength can finish Poliwrath after a Strength with 2 X Attack boosts. And Primeape and Poliwrath are ranges at Lv. 31 with perfect Attack.
- On most Speed DVs, the extra experience during the Morty split allows you to outspeed or speedtie something that you wouldn't otherwise (Espeon and the 3 Haunters).
- The extra experience may save a turn on the Kimono Girls (3-shot Umbreon because Lv. 23/24, 2-shot Vaporeon because Lv. 24/25, 2-shot Flareon on bad Attack because Lv. 21/22).
- The extra experience may allow you to survive a crit+non-crit from Jolteon, or it may allow you to face Jolteon without healing beforehand.
- Skipping the Olivine Center becomes much easier to do without using super-effective moves. You can Ice Punch all five Lv. 16 Gastlies, you can usually finish Gengar with Ice Punch, you can almost always Bite Vaporeon, you're more likely to 1-shot the Lv. 20 Haunter with Surf (so less likely to get Spite), and you can usually Headbutt the Growlithes.
- You'll always have Bite for Greg.
- You're less likely to run low on Full Heals, so skipping the forest Full Heal and buying only 2 is very rarely a problem.
- You're more likely to get Lv. 30 before the top of the Lighthouse, which allows you to skip the Rare Candy and gives you Lv. 32 for Poliwrath (and potentially other benefits like Lv. 37 for the first Arbok in Radio Tower 1)
- If you've hit no spinners through Morty, you can take the bottom path through Route 39. This involves a few extra tiles of movement and passing a spinner with three Pokemon (rather than Dana, who has two). However, the movement is easier to execute (no waiting for rotator), you can repel on the pause buffer menu (because no grass before the spinner), the spinner can be passed if he gets stuck facing up (Dana can't if she's facing down), Olivia appears on the screen much earlier and thus has more chance to get stuck, and the spinner gives you Lv. 30 before Ernest (Dana barely doesn't).
- You might get Lv. 30 for the Marill in the Lighthouse, which can save a turn
- You don't have to Bite the Magnemites later, which saves 2.5 to 3 seconds of NVE text

The downsides from having less experience later are fairly minimal:
- You don't get Lv. 40 for Rival 4's Golbat without hitting a spinner, but you need to X Special on this fight to go Etherless anyway, and you have Full Heals if it uses Confuse Ray (which it doesn't always do).
- You might not get Lv. 41 for the first Muk or 42 for the second Muk
- You might not get Lv. 44 for the Lv. 36 Golbat (rare even with late D/T)
- You might not get Lv. 44 for Arbok or Vileplume
- You might not get Lv. 46 for Clair's Dragonairs, but this is only a problem with bad Special and no Calciums
- You might not get Lv. 49 for Will's Slowbro (rare, and 2-shot is even rarer)
- You might not get Lv. 50 for Koga's Crobat (this is the biggest downside; hitting Douglas is the difference)
- You might not get Lv. 53 for Lance's Lv. 50 Dragonite (rare)
- You might not get Lv. 57 for Misty's Lapras
- You might not get Lv. 61 for Blue's Alakazam (rare, and only relevant on a few Speed DVs)
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Re: Improved Crystal route

Post by Keizaron » Sun Mar 08, 2015 6:59 pm

Any luck on looking into Calciums vs no Calciums against Red? I would consider doing the route this way if 2 vs 3 Calciums makes as much of a (placebo?) difference.

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Re: Improved Crystal route

Post by Exarion » Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:02 am

Finally got around to looking into late Rare Candy uses (i.e., picking up the Rare Candy when you're already Lv. 30 so that you can use it later).

http://pastebin.com/cFWUkR9y

Short version: The second Lighthouse menu is a great place to use the candy if you don't hit spinners. If you hit only Douglas (a common occurrence), you can instead use the candy on a separate menu before Porygon to reach Lv. 40. The idea is to guarantee/improve many damage ranges, including crucial ones such as Koga's Crobat and Lance's Dragonite, at the expense of 15-20 seconds to pick up and use the candy.

Also, with good stats, you can skip the Goldenrod Center and just use an Ether on Surf if you use the candy on the second Lighthouse menu. This requires teaching Slash over Bite at Lv. 38, which you get after the Arbok in Radio Tower 1. You'd use all, or nearly all, of Slash's 20 PP, and then teach Return over Slash on the underground Escape Rope menu (possibly before it if you miss some ranges). I'll probably write a pastebin with that PP management tomorrow.
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Re: Improved Crystal route

Post by Keizaron » Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:39 am

With Calciums possibly being obsoleted, have we looked into something that might be a little more useful in Crystal than Gold: Proteins? I bring this up without any information on whether it's really worth it or not, but I was thinking two to three Proteins instead of Calciums (or skipping Calciums) might save some time. Things that come to mind are Rapidash before Victory Road (instead of Surf), Will's Slowbro (two shot instead of three), Misty's Lapras (safer one shot), and Red's Snorlax (safer two shot).

I'm not sure if it actually would make a difference, and/or if there may be more benefits, but it might be worth looking into if we consider going Calcium-less in a run, or if we have perfect Special but not so great Attack.

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Re: Improved Crystal route

Post by Keizaron » Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:17 am

Another thing that I've kind of been tossing around in my head (and I'm sure some others have as well) is if Abra strats can be conformed to fit Crystal or not. Abra's half the price in Crystal as opposed to Gold and would allow us to remove at the very least one spinner from Kanto and possibly two from Johto. The trade-offs would be early Donald and Teru are pretty much guaranteed at that point, the payoff may not be worth it if you hit a spinner in spinner hell already, the extra time to get Abra, and having to do Rock Tunnel, which to me felt like was laid out a tiny bit different from Gold. The pluses are if you didn't hit spinners in spinner hell you can avoid them, no retarded movement after Sudowoodo, one trainer with one pokemon instead of one with two and four tiles worth of Heidi dodge, and an Elixer instead of a Max Ether for a possible PP route change.

I didn't do any timing yet, but I did find out that a Max Repel lasts for the entirety of Rock Tunnel and the surf/bike to Power Plant. Repel shopping could free up some extra money that way; buy one less Repel since we're skipping another spinner hell trip, could buy 11 Super Repels instead of 14 and buy 3 Max Repels at E4 like in Gold.

It might honestly not be worth it and might be slower, but it's just a thought.

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