Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:54 pm

Exact impact (accounting for the interrelations of how you'd fight Porygon/Koffing(s)/Weezing):

12 DV ~ 2.00 1.82 extra ranges hit
13 DV ~ 1.90 1.85
14 DV ~ 1.77 (+0.6s saved in SE text)
15 DV ~ 0.95 (+0.6s saved in SE text)

This assumes you will never crit, so the exact number is actually marginally lower. However, it doesn't account for what the boost to Return might net you. I'll refrain from further opinion for now since I keep bouncing back and forth on the issue, but a logical choice might be to get the Calciums unless you have perfect special (18 SpDef @ L10).
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:31 am

So I think the last thing that really needs major tuning is understanding/exploiting trainer AI (especially with the Elite 4 & Red). I looked a lot tonight through the pokecrystal disassembly to try to get some ideas; first thing I tested was Red. From a large number of tests, I was getting Charm about 75% of the time. Not sure if that number is correct, but I am pretty sure the only thing that matters is that Pikachu can't kill you with Thunder. As long as that is the case, I don't believe it matters what your Special Defense or HP is.

One idea I came up with (and I'm sure this isn't original) was entering the fight with HP slightly off from full, so that Pikachu would have a chance to use Quick Attack instead of getting locked into Thunder. However, Pikachu was getting kills that did not align with damage calculations, which confused me. After more testing, I uncovered a bug in the game code -- the whole story is quite long(*), but Dabomstew helped make sense of what was happening.

It turns out the Special Defense badge boost is programmed incorrectly. The intent was that you would get the Special Defense boost from the GlacierBadge, but the code does its bit arithmetic while the Special Attack stat is still in the register being operated on (instead of what badges you have obtained). The bottom line: you only get the Special Defense badge boost if you have the GlacierBadge AND your special attack stat is between 231 and 486 (or between 743 and 998).

This probably has a few implications elsewhere on damage calcs (Elite 4, mainly), but the two ones that are obvious to me are on Blue and Red. Obviously with Red, you are going to need your HP higher than previously assumed in order to avoid getting Thunder. On Blue, this also changes the equation with Exeggutor. Previously, X Special was the strat, which incidentally gave Feraligatr just enough Special Attack to get the Special Defense boost. This made Exeggutor's cutoff for using Solarbeam around 186-188 HP for Feraligatr (depending on Calciums & level). With the X Attack strat, there is no Special Defense Boost, so the cutoff is around 206-210 HP. This means you have more leeway in deciding when to go with only 2 X Attacks, since Blue cannot Full Restore if he uses Solarbeam (but he can if he uses Sunny Day and you miss the damage range with Return). This would have been useful info to have before Keizaron's 3:20 Crystal run ...

(*) Hilarious sidenote - I was confused by inconsistent results during testing; I had figured out the X Special was increasing Special Defense by what appeared to be a factor of 9/8 (and that X Specials beyond that were not increasing it). But on a few occasions, there was no impact despite having used an X Special. The issue was that I had been stalling Blue's Pidgeot to try to get my HP in certain ranges for Exeggutor; the inconsistent results were happening whenever I used all 5 X Specials I had while stalling, which put my Special Attack around 550, thus losing the Special Defense boost again.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Exarion » Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:20 am

One minor implication of the Special Defense bug: Blue's Arcanine appears to use Extremespeed only when it does more damage on average than Flamethrower*. The damage calculations are very close and depend on your DVs, but the Special Defense boost often makes the difference by causing Flamethrower do less than Extremespeed. So if we're considering X Special on Blue as a backup strat or something, we should be wary of that potential side effect.

*Results of my testing on emulator were consistent, but I can't figure out these two Blue fights:

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmIc8uP-veM (start at 3:20:53)

Special Attack was 136 at Lv. 60, so it should have been 229 after the X Special, which doesn't trigger the boost. So Flamethrower should have done more than Extremespeed, but Arcanine used Extremespeed.

2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTpCwXPZKa8 (start at 3:19:38)

Special Attack was 137 at Lv. 60, so it should have been 230 or 231 after the X Special, depending on which calculation comes first (X Special's 1.5x or the badge boost's 1.125x). if it's the former, Arcanine using Flamethrower here lines up with calculations, but if it's the latter (231 Special Attack), it should have used Extremespeed.
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:23 am

Exarion wrote:One minor implication of the Special Defense bug: Blue's Arcanine appears to use Extremespeed only when it does more damage on average than Flamethrower*. The damage calculations are very close and depend on your DVs, but the Special Defense boost often makes the difference by causing Flamethrower do less than Extremespeed. So if we're considering X Special on Blue as a backup strat or something, we should be wary of that potential side effect.
This is a good note. For certain defense/special DV combinations, this could also impact the decision to get Calciums; if they make the difference between Arcanine using Flamethrower and Extremespeed, it's several seconds more of timeloss to account for.
Exarion wrote:*Results of my testing on emulator were consistent, but I can't figure out these two Blue fights:

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmIc8uP-veM (start at 3:20:53)

Special Attack was 136 at Lv. 60, so it should have been 229 after the X Special, which doesn't trigger the boost. So Flamethrower should have done more than Extremespeed, but Arcanine used Extremespeed.

2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTpCwXPZKa8 (start at 3:19:38)

Special Attack was 137 at Lv. 60, so it should have been 230 or 231 after the X Special, depending on which calculation comes first (X Special's 1.5x or the badge boost's 1.125x). if it's the former, Arcanine using Flamethrower here lines up with calculations, but if it's the latter (231 Special Attack), it should have used Extremespeed.
Both get L61 before Arcanine (139, 140 SpAtk). That gives them enough to reach 231, and thus get the special defense boost. (Stat modifiers come before the badge boost, though it is immaterial in these cases.)

***EDIT: This explains #1 but not #2. Might warrant more testing.

***EDIT2: After wasting way too much time testing and thoroughly confusing myself, I realized #2 got the Special Defense fall from Alakazam's Psychic, thus entering Flamethrower range.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Exarion » Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:51 am

OK, that explains it, thanks. I thought you'd only get the boost if you hit 231 at the time the modifiers were first applied, but in retrospect, that doesn't make much sense.
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Exarion » Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:40 pm

I did a run of Gold today to learn the route, and this happened on Red with 14 DV Special:

Turn 1: Guard Spec. --> Charm
Turn 2: X Speed --> Thunder (down to 32/204 HP)
Turn 3: Full Restore --> Thunder (down to 18/204)
Turn 4: Full Restore --> Quick Attack (down to 186/204)
Turn 5: Full Restore --> Charm

So Pika did 186 and then didn't go for Thunder when I was at 186. So I guess it doesn't always use Thunder when it can kill.
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:27 pm

Just tested and got the same thing. The range is 158-186 (186 being the 1/39); at 185 he will lock in to Thunder. So I guess we can probably assume "can kill" ignores the 1/39 chance of max damage.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Exarion » Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:07 pm

Minor menuing optimization for Ilex Forest:
1. Repel on the menu before Rival 2 (need to do menu on last possible tile; doesn't work as well if taking poison damage).
2. Use the alternate Farfetch'd movement (see 34:42 mark here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsittglJ3Ug).
3. The repel will wear off on the tile below Farfetch'd after you get HM01. Use the second Repel and teach Cut on this tile.
4. Cut the bush from the field, not the menu
5. Don't pick up both the Full Heal and the Super Potion (one is OK)
6. The third Repel should wear off after you've walked through all the grass tiles on Route 34

This is about a second faster than any other movement I've seen. I'll add calculations to this post later.
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Exarion » Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:07 pm

Might it be a good idea to catch Poliwag in Ecruteak City after defeating either Morty or Chuck? The extra movement takes 7 or 4 seconds, respectively. The extra movement for early Poliwag on Route 44 takes about 7 seconds.

Benefits of early Ecruteak Poliwag (+7s):
1. You can damage any encounter, rather than being forced to YOLO ball Lv. 20 Poliwags.
2. You can damage most encounters with Headbutt or Bite, which can flinch while avoiding SE/NVE text.
3. You can catch Poliwags with only three moves (Lv. 15-18), which saves 7-8 seconds when teaching the HMs.
4. If Croconaw gets put to sleep, you can use a Full Heal on a repel menu (rather than a separate menu before Vance). You can also take the Olivine Center if HP/PP/Full Heals are low anyway and you want Headbutt for the Hitmons+Machoke.
5. If Croconaw kills Poliwag with a crit, the experience will be enough to reach Lv. 29 at the Lighthouse when spinnerless (Lv. 15s give 165 exp.)
6. If your time sucks and you get Politrolled, you can reset now rather than waiting 30 more minutes.
7. You can play a little riskier vs. Chuck (use Poliwag/Poliwhirl to finish Poliwrath if Feraligatr dies, rather than switching out or healing to avoid death).

Benefits of late Ecruteak Poliwag (+4s):
1. You can catch Poliwags with only three moves (Lv. 15-18), which saves 7-8 seconds when teaching the HMs.
2. If your time sucks and you get Politrolled, you can reset now rather than waiting 15 more minutes.

Benefits of early Route 44 Poliwag (+7s):
1. You get Lv. 36 for Seel and Dewgong even if you dodge Douglas
2. You get a few useful levels during the Rocket segment, such as Lv. 39 for Porygon without Douglas and Lv. 40 for Weezing with Douglas.
3. You can teach HM06+HM07 on the Return menu.
4. Movement in Blackthorn City is easier.

Possible snags with Ecruteak Poliwag:
1. It's possible, albeit very unlikely, to die to Poli after a bad Morty, and then you'd have to catch it with your Cut slave/Kenya out and then switch Poli to slot 1 to make the Route 38 Repel work.
2. Using Headbutt PP on a high-level Poliwag or Poliwhirl could force you to take the center/waste SE text on Growlithe/not have Headbutt for Hitmonlee.
3. The PP route from Goldenrod to the heal house is slower and/or less consistent because you're a lower level for the Rocket segment and need to fight Vance. Teaching Slash over Bite would probably solve the consistency issue, but you'd lose time from extra text (A learned SLASH! + five-character move vs. four + useless crits).
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:43 am

The Repel idea is nice; something I hadn't considered. I knew you could get Poli encounters in Violet, but somehow missed that you could in Ecruteak.

Post-Morty Poliwag is almost certainly an inferior option because you don't deal a lot of damage to Poliwhirls at L28, even with Headbutt.

Post-Chuck Poliwag has you dealing slightly more damage (percentage-wise) than standard early Poliwag, except with Ice Punch (since no type boost from Pryce). So L16 Poliwags would be very safe to Ice Punch, and you could even consider Ice Punching L15 Poliwags (almost comparable to L21 Poliwags with standard early Poliwag). I think this is clearly a better option than post-Morty, and worthy of consideration given the other benefits it has.

However, its impact on PP and experience could kill it as an option. In the current standard route, you have at most 4 Return PP (and no other moves) to play with (barring crits on Seadras/Kingdra), so inserting 2 more PP into that section makes running out of PP a hell of a lot more likely given the damage ranges and Smokescreens you have to deal with. The L36 Golbat, L32 Arbok, and L32 Vileplume are the 3 damage ranges where you can waste Return PP, so you can't even play wait-and-see when it comes to teaching Slash.

Skipping Vance + going spinnerless would also mean missing L38 for the L25 Muk, which makes Strength + Bite a range. And you obviously have to commit to Ecruteak Poliwag; can't play wait-and-see with Douglas either.

At the end of the day it comes down to which method saves more time on average given the numerous factors that are in play. (I'm not one for those types of calculations.)

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Exarion » Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:19 am

Yeah, post-Chuck seems better considering you can damage everything so well. Maybe X Special, (X Acc) on the Koffing/Weezing guy? That would remove all ranges and save enough PP.
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Sinstar » Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:31 am

So I've been looking into the rocket exec fight with the Koffings in radio Tower. It seems that the 2nd Koffing doesn't seem to be using smokescreen against me, so potentially surfing the first Koffing, then using an x Special and using Bite on the remaining Koffings could be the way to go. If this doesn't work out you could similarly x spec on the Weezing, which doesn't have smokescreen (or I have at least never seen it) and use the same strategy but use the X special there instead. This would make the pp route for Ecruteak Poliwag work and probably make that a better strategy in my opinion.
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Exarion » Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:38 pm

Sinstar wrote:So I've been looking into the rocket exec fight with the Koffings in radio Tower. It seems that the 2nd Koffing doesn't seem to be using smokescreen against me, so potentially surfing the first Koffing, then using an x Special and using Bite on the remaining Koffings could be the way to go. If this doesn't work out you could similarly x spec on the Weezing, which doesn't have smokescreen (or I have at least never seen it) and use the same strategy but use the X special there instead. This would make the pp route for Ecruteak Poliwag work and probably make that a better strategy in my opinion.
I've definitely seen Smokescreen from Weezing in Crystal, and I think I've seen it in Gold.
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:46 am

Stuff that I think we figured out during the course of Sinstar's stream tonight:

(1) X Spc on the second Koffing looks like the best play for preserving non-Bite PP. Only the first Koffing has a high chance of using Smokescreen. This is possibly the right play even with Route 44 Poliwag, since it should remove any worries about PP from Goldenrod thru Heal House.

(2) Ecruteak -> Mahogany movement: Mt. Mortar comes out about 4 seconds faster in a vacuum. However, you would not be able to couple the Super Repel during Cianwood menus (runs out around Lake of Rage), so this would give a couple seconds back, and the Mt. Mortar movement is not exactly free in the dark (should still be faster with practice). If doing Ecruteak Poliwag, however, you are going to be using the extra menu anyway to Super Repel, so you would reap the full 4 second advantage.

(3) Buying an X Spd for Lance is a good idea; you can use it during Gyarados's recharge turn if it Hyper Beams, so that you outspeed Aerodactyl and can avoid potential Rock Slide/Ancientpower trolling (along with text/HP bar animations).

(4) "Setup" AI likes to use stat-down moves on a player Pokemon's first turn in battle. However, item usage does not appear to count towards a player Pokemon's turn (hence why Pikachu continues to use Charm). There was some thought that this would merit using Return on Umbreon turn 1 (to register a turn and cause it to favor Faint Attack on turn 2), but on second look, the stat-down clause doesn't appear to apply to Accuracy, so I don't think this will actually be useful on Karen. Accuracy-down moves appear to get disfavored if the enemy's HP falls under 50%, so there should still be a small effect from attacking turn 1, but the chance of crit-killing the Umbreon before setting up on Vileplume probably rules this out as a good idea. The best way to induce Faint Attack remains entering with < 50% HP, but you shouldn't aim to take damage during the Elite 4 in order to pull this off, since it's better to simply not heal at any point if possible.

It's possible there are other fights where the stat-down knowledge might come in handy, so I figured it's worth mentioning anyway. The other enemy moves that are encouraged as part of the "player Pokemon's first turn" clause are: Bind, Wrap, Fire Spin, Clamp, Icy Wind, Curse (Ghost), Swagger, Attract, Rain Dance, Sunny Day (this is all "Smart" AI rather than "Setup" AI). Rain Dance and Sunny Day are also encouraged if it is the enemy Pokemon's first turn, hence why you still see Sunny Day from Erika.

It's not 100% clear what stats are included in the stat-down clause (EDIT: all stats are included). (disassembly comments only mention Attack/Evasion), and I haven't done thorough testing to verify everything, so don't take this as ground truth. ***EDIT: Especially since seconds after I submitted this, I'm wondering why Smokescreen would be less likely after the first Koffing on the Rocket Exec fight if accuracy-down moves aren't part of the first-turn clause.
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by shantiee » Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:54 pm

I don't know if using Smokescreen by 2nd Koffing would that less likely. I remember that it used Smokescreen at least 3 times in my runs. I'm not good at theorycrafting, but it happened to me quite often, so I'm not sure about that X Spc strats.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Exarion » Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:07 pm

Smokescreen from the second Koffing is definitely less likely. I got it about 10% of the time in testing (vs. about 80% from the first Koffing).

Interesting that Curse is favored on turn 1. This doesn't really apply to the Morty fight, since you have to set up on the Gastly and then 1-shot it, but it does apply to Rival 3 in Crystal. When his Haunter leads with Lick (not that uncommon), you're more likely to get Curse on the next turn if you used an X Special, and you're more likely to get Lick/Spite if you used Surf/Bite. In most cases, you'd prefer Lick/Spite because Curse damage + crit Razor Leaf can kill. Also, the Curse damage wastes time and must be healed off before Morty.

This is relevant when considering whether to get Abra after dodging Ivan+Irwin. If you get Abra, you've fought Donald/Teru and are Lv. 25 for Bayleef, meaning an X Special is unnecessary. If you don't get Abra and then dodge 2/3 spinners before Ecruteak, you are Lv. 24 for Bayleef, meaning you need to X Special and have lower HP/Sp. Def for Razor Leaf.
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:03 am

Looked at 13/12/10/10/10 Totos today because that was long overdue. I only looked at the implications up to Radio Tower, but they appear to be runnable, and I don't see why they wouldn't be runnable from Radio Tower onwards (but you would want to get the Calciums). The combination of perfect attack, good defense, and good speed will offset time you'll lose from bad special. At L5, 10/10 = 6-11 spc DV; there's a potential reset point at L6, where you learn if you have 6-9 DV (11/11) or 10-11 DV (11/12) special.

I had an old PP route from before I incorporated Early Donald/Teru, where, with good attack, I delayed teaching Ice Punch (since I was L24 for all 5 Gastlies) in order to preserve Headbutt and Surf PP. A good deal of it can be used with the 13/12/10/10/10 Totos, as well as other high attack Totos. I wrote it up in more detail here: http://pastebin.com/GfeeVMNH (EDIT: Made some changes for different Kimono orderings). I will beat the Scratch drum for eternity, but its value is particularly evident with 13+ atk Totodiles; you can potentially save several seconds in SE text and in Kimono movement/fights while still preserving Headbutt PP, and get Headbutt to last into Cianwood Gym pretty reliably.

This can still be done with the 13/12/10/10/10 Totos; with 6-10 special, you don't 1-hit the L16 Gastlies with Ice Punch, but you can Surf them and use either Headbutt or Water Gun on the Growlithes in the Lighthouse. Water Gun won't save any SE text that Biting Gastlies wouldn't, but by delaying Ice Punch, there's potential for a Surf/Headbutt/Bite/Strength moveset through Chuck's gym. Getting to Headbutt Poliwrath is a pretty appealing prospect, and works well now that 2 X Attacks on that fight is becoming standard. I don't know that you'd want to do this with good attack and special, since the normal PP management is so easy to pull off, but it's certainly a possibility.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:01 am

Following up on the previous thought, it just occurred to me that if you are skipping Ice Punch through Chuck, you could skip buying it until the second Goldenrod Mart trip. The only things that you might need Ice Punch for before the second Mart trip would be (1) Mahogany Rocket Exec's L23 Gloom, (2) Poliwag. This PP management is intended for high attack, and with 14-15 atk DV, you are a heavy favorite to get the Gloom with Strength. With 8+ atk DV, you are still a favorite, and even 5 DV is still a 35.1% chance (both accounting for crits). There are a few different ways you could decide to do Poliwag; haven't looked much into it to figure out what would be best.

The benefits to delaying Ice Punch until the second Mart trip would be threefold: (1) don't have to go up to floor 5 in the first shopping trip, saving time on movement; (2) saving $3000 in the first shopping trip, which could be be used in a number of different ways; (3) a lot more PP flexibility between the Lance Heal and the Heal House, since you could use both Headbutt and Bite as PP-preservation moves before teaching Return and Ice Punch.

I've only given this a quick look-over at this point, so I'm not sure how neatly this can be worked in for all Totos, but it comes with a lot of benefits and opens up a lot of options if it can be pulled off.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Sinstar » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:00 am

If the walking in the shop saves 7s in movement then this would surely be worth it by default? Anyway great idea very much worth looking into more.
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Sinstar » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:04 am

I guess you could use the money to shop pre whitney, if this saves any movement time (I guess not much with picking up abra), it'd probably be better spent buying super potions in azalea while selling mud slap, then still be able to buy full heals and escape ropes in goldenrod.
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Exarion » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:08 am

This looks like a pretty big time saver for all Totos. I'm guessing we'd use the money to buy Super Potions in Azalea, allowing us to skip the Super Potions in the well, forest and underground. Maybe we could buy more Full Heals and/or a fifth Escape Rope as well.

EDIT: I think we can buy Supers without selling Mud-Slap, even with no spinner money. So Mud-Slap and Attract could be sold together in Goldenrod.
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Sinstar » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:16 am

Exarion wrote:This looks like a pretty big time saver for all Totos. I'm guessing we'd use the money to buy Super Potions in Azalea, allowing us to skip the Super Potions in the well, forest and underground. Maybe we could buy more Full Heals and/or a fifth Escape Rope as well.

EDIT: I think we can buy Supers without selling Mud-Slap, even with no spinner money. So Mud-Slap and Attract could be sold together in Goldenrod.
The shopping shouldn't be too hard to work out in game when I see the money, not sure if it'd be wise to skip the super potion on route 32 but if you wanted to make up time from a bad Falkner you could do that, particularly if you still had a potion left. If you did buy an extra escape rope this would give a convenient menu to use the protein before Pryce with Ecruteak poliwag, which would make that very slightly nicer.
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Exarion » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:29 am

Yeah, I'd probably pick up the Route 32 Super Potion to be safe through all the spinners before Azalea, but the others would always be skipped.

No Ice Punch for Poliwag is annoying. I see four options, none of which is clearly best:
1) Catch Poliwag in Ecruteak after Morty (damage with Scratch, Bite or Headbutt)
2) Catch Poliwag in Ecruteak after Chuck, chucking balls when they're at lower levels (may require buying more)
3) Catch Poliwag early on Route 44, chucking balls when they're at lower levels (may require buying more)
4) Catch Poliwag late on Route 44 (old strats), chucking balls at everything except Poliwhirl (requires buying more)
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Sinstar
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Sinstar » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:38 am

So basically we have a free moveslot, we can basically keep any move and get through the run. So our options would be:

1. Scratch: possiblity of saving se text/headbutt pp in Morty segment, ranges that will be have to be looked at that can weaken poliwags.

2. Water Gun: Can use it on growlithes in lighthouse and some other things to finish off, could also be used to weaken poliwags, but I can imagine would be less favourable to scratch in terms of damage? this would need to be looked at. You could also keep scratch with this up to morty.

3. rage/fury cutter: almost certainly inferior to the above.

4. Headbutt: possibility for flinches in Chuck's gym, including on Poliwrath, but you can't weaken any low level poliwags with early poliwag.
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Exarion » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:54 am

I think the flinches in Chuck's gym are more important than weakening Poliwags. Assuming 2 X Attacks and no Bitter Berry, I roughly calculated a few weeks ago that Headbutt saves 2.5 to 3 seconds on Poliwrath. You can probably double that number after accounting for flinches on the Hitmons, Machoke and Primeape. Also, if Ice Punch is taught after the Muk in Radio Tower 1, you get a chance to flinch there.

With regard to PP flexibility, could you use just an Ether on Surf from Lance heal until the heal house? That would be quite a bit faster than picking up the Route 44 Elixer or taking the center.
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