Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:31 am

***EDIT: Just caught Ryziken's discovery in Lembox's 3:24 run of surfing to Fuchsia from Blaine's gym, which is way faster than Cycling Road (faster movement than biking from Erika's gym + skips a trainer & spinner), and which rendered this post irrelevant.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Tue Feb 24, 2015 1:45 pm

So I was skeptical about Return + Pink Bow's place in Gold, but this Blaine -> Janine concept actually makes it clear that this is probably best. It wasn't clear if Return made enough fights faster to warrant the time, but on top of these, a hyper-efficient Kanto route is now apparent to me:

1. Fly to Vermillion -> Bike to Rock Tunnel/Power Plant pt 1
2. Fly to Saffron -> Erika's gym
3. Fly to Saffron -> Sabrina's gym
4. Bike to Misty's gym (delay Machine part)
5. Nugget Bridge
6. Fly to Cerulean -> Misty's gym (pick up Machine part)
7. Abra Warp to Rock Tunnel Pokecenter -> Power Plant pt 2
8. Fly to Lavender (Expn Card)
9. Fly to Vermillion -> Surge's gym
10. Brock's gym -> Blaine's gym -> Janine's gym
11. Fly to Viridian -> Blue's gym
12. Fly to Pallet -> Talk to Oak
13. Fly to Viridian -> Bike to Red

Return makes it possible to fight the gyms in this order. The only thing that really changes in Sabrina's Espeon becomes a damage range, but even at minimum attack, this is a favorable range.

Will have to test tonight to make sure I'm not missing/overlooking something, but I am pretty sure this is the way to go.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Sinstar » Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:53 am

Just be careful of doing Sabrina so early since not only is the Espeon a range Mr Mime is a range on terrible attack. Alakazam can also outspeed you and deal a lot of damage with Psychic.
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:07 am

With Return + Pink Bow, Mr. Mime is 1HKO'd regardless of attack. However, the Alakazam indeed outspeeds you with a 0-3 Speed DV, and ties with a 4 DV. Don't know if Return also 1HKOs Mr. Mime in Crystal, but Kanto is done differently there anyway, so I don't think you gain as much by early Sabrina as you do in Gold.

In Gold, doing Sabrina first saves ~10.4 seconds of movement vs directly after Misty, and doing the Machine Part quest early saves 14 walking tiles (~3.7 seconds). You need L58 for Misty's Lapras, and the only way you'd be L58 by deferring Sabrina is if you hit Kaylee, Douglas, Joyce, or 2+ spinners post-Feraligatr. So with a 10.4 second buffer, I think it is worth taking a risky fight anyway, unless maybe you have bad attack, bad speed, and would be L58 for Lapras anyway. (When you fight Sabrina at L58, 5 Atk DV 1HKO's Espeon and 0 Spd DV speedties Alakazam.)

I rerouted Gold PP with Return; I think the best approach is to take the Goldenrod Center and get Return before stepping foot in Radio Tower. Then take the Blackthorn Center before Clair's gym (obviously this is nicer to do with early Poliwag/Blackthorn). The time you save skipping the Heal House + the time saved on movement in Goldenrod is only a second or two short of taking an extra Pokecenter, and this allows you to not have to get/use an Ether (optimally). PP is extremely tight from Blackthorn thru Lance, so I'm still taking the Lighthouse Ether with me in case things go poorly. If you get through Lance without it, you can just use it in Kanto and forgo the Elixir/Max Ether. This could possibly work out better in Crystal, since PP may not be as constrained (due to more skippable trainers), but I can't say for sure because I'm not that familiar with the route.

Cinnabar -> Fucshia is clearly the way to go, but it does cost an extra Super Repel (so back to 15 total in Olivine). However the fact that you would heal in Blackthorn means you can safely buy 3 Super Potions instead of 4. This doesn't impact anything really; just a small detail for item shopping.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Sinstar » Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:00 am

entrpntr wrote:With Return + Pink Bow, Mr. Mime is 1HKO'd regardless of attack.
I must have been looking at the strength calc there come to think of it. This movement does appear to be the way to go if you can do it, I've just been testing out with very low speed Totodiles since a good run can get to Kanto with bad speed.
entrpntr wrote:I think the best approach is to take the Goldenrod Center and get Return before stepping foot in Radio Tower. Then take the Blackthorn Center before Clair's gym (obviously this is nicer to do with early Poliwag/Blackthorn). The time you save skipping the Heal House + the time saved on movement in Goldenrod is only a second or two short of taking an extra Pokecenter, and this allows you to not have to get/use an Ether (optimally). PP is extremely tight from Blackthorn thru Lance, so I'm still taking the Lighthouse Ether with me in case things go poorly. If you get through Lance without it, you can just use it in Kanto and forgo the Elixir/Max Ether.
I did a run today and tried something like this, combined with early Poliwag and doing Vance pre radio tower, I was able to get all the way from an initial goldenrod heal to the Route 27 heal house without the ether fairly easily, the only issue being slightly tight surf pp, but I'm sure it can work very easily with more routing. The only question being if some of the extra Super Effective text such as for Biting rival's haunter is worth the timesave for taking the heal house vs a center which I've yet to time fully.
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:05 am

Sinstar wrote:I did a run today and tried something like this, combined with early Poliwag and doing Vance pre radio tower, I was able to get all the way from an initial goldenrod heal to the Route 27 heal house without the ether fairly easily, the only issue being slightly tight surf pp, but I'm sure it can work very easily with more routing. The only question being if some of the extra Super Effective text such as for Biting rival's haunter is worth the timesave for taking the heal house vs a center which I've yet to time fully.
Yeah, there are several competing factors to look into more. The reason why PP is tight for me is because I plan on teaching Return right before Underground. Using Dabomstew's ROM, Feraligatr will be fighting Sneasel with 216 happiness (L41), so Return would be 86 base power. This gives chances to 1HKO the Sneasel without a crit (7.7% @ 5 Atk DV, 30.8% @ 10 Atk DV, 51.3% @ 15 Atk DV), but obviously reduces the ability to utilize Bite as a PP conservation tool. Return also makes the two Muks in the underground more likely kills (unless you have really bad attack and good special, in which case Surf is slightly better).

If you still have a Bitter Berry, you would probably want to equip it and buy 1 extra X Special in Goldenrod Mart (as werster suggested), which would make Return unnecessary for the Rival fight (although you miss the chance to couple teaching Return with the Bike on the same menu). The Muks are the only other Pokemon that Return helps on through Radio Tower, and Surf is only marginally worse on them, so it wouldn't be too bad to delay to make sure PP was in a better state. There are a few other options similar to yours where you give back a few seconds so you can use the Heal House instead of Blackthorn Center.

I did some testing with my PP route to see how it played out, and early results make it seem like the Ether might have to be used quite often, which would minimize the benefit. Smokescreen from the Seadras and Double Team/Minimize from Koga can be annoying, and it only takes a couple of misses or missed damage ranges to require Ether usage.

Will have to do a bit more testing to see what works best, but I'm guessing it's a situation where all reasonable options are within 2-3 seconds of each other on average. I think everything else is pretty much in place (barring any more ridiculous developments).

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by werster » Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:46 am

Alright well I redid my notes for Crystal. Here they are, if you can think of any improvements make sure to let me know (even if it's better PP management to save 1 input, I don't care): https://www.dropbox.com/s/yolycrwkqt6eo ... Notes.docx

Note: They aren't as detailed as some, I find having all the detail in notes just clutters them up

This is also a quick pastebin of the differences over what my notes where a month ago, and the support notes that I use: http://pastebin.com/cFWUkR9y

I'm not going to go over Gold yet until I'm done with Crystal, switching between the two too much confuses me when I'm playing due to them being so similar. But I'm definitely going back once I get a decent Crystal time.
entrpntr wrote:Mountebank looked into the disassembly, and figured out precisely how Gen 2 spinner mechanics work: http://pastebin.com/2QCjptA1. Essentially, based on their current direction, spinners are 50% likely to switch to a certain direction (Right<->Down, Left<->Up), and by knowing this, you can avoid passing spinners when they are likely to spin your way next. This has obvious, considerable implications, especially for Crystal, where there are more spinners to deal with.
This is cool + interesting about the direction switch probabilities, but I don't think it's relevant for runs. I mean, I'm certainly not going to see Kaylee looking left and think "yeah I'm not going to pass right now, gonna wait till she looks down or right", sit there for several seconds and then still get baited.
Sinstar wrote:I just had an interesting idea that may or may not be useful as a small time/money saver in either gold or crystal, although I'm not familiar enough with the route to be sure. Since money is so tight you can potentially save $700 by picking up the X accuracy in team rocket HQ and having this for Karen instead of a guard spec, it's widely known that x acuraccy makes all moves 100% accurate in gen 1 but this effect also actually applies in gen 2, with a clause for OHKO moves. This means you potentially save a turn of setup on Karen if she doesn't sand attack, and could even save it for Sabrina or something in that case. Just a little thought :).
Picking up the X Acc is a worse option, since picking up items takes like over 6 seconds in this game. However -buying- one on the second shopping trip is definitely worth it in my opinion (takes like 2.5 secs) when you consider Sand Attack takes longer to use after a Guard Spec, can miss, and you Potentially also save a Full Restore by the potential turn saved as well
entrpntr wrote:You need L58 for Misty's Lapras
N-no? I fight Lapras at 56 (57 w/ spinners) and it's still a very favourable range (I didn't calc this one for some reason, but it's something around the 92% area with a DV of around 12 I think)

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:34 am

Not necessarily disagreeing about the spinners (it's certainly less world-shaking than it seemed at first), but some more food for thought: according to Mountebank's pastebin, it looks like there are 32 possibilities for the number of frames a spinner will look a certain direction: 2, 4, 6, ..., 62, and 512 (might be 1 less for each). So if you are going for pause buffering, the later you pause after a change of direction, the more likely it is a new direction will be chosen during your step. So late pauses on a 50% tile may be a reasonable place to draw the line and choose to wait a bit more. In any event, the findings should only lead to better decision making when it comes to spinners.

For Misty, okay you don't "need" L58, but you obviously want it and the optimal Kanto movement will get you there in Gold. If you are worried enough to waste 10 seconds of movement to delay Sabrina, you probably don't have good attack, so you won't have very favorable ranges on Lapras. For Return at L58, 5/6 DV = 92.3%, 7/8 DV = 97.4%, and everything else is guaranteed (whereas 10 DV @ L57 is 76.9%). If you're trying to remove risk from Sabrina, you are usually adding some to Misty, so it's hard to find a good reason to do a different gym order for Gold. Clearly the equation is a lot different for Crystal, where you are lower leveled, and where Sabrina before the Expn Card is a logical ordering.

Buying X Acc(s) is definitely an intriguing idea, given those mechanics.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by werster » Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:14 pm

I forgot to mention in my notes: After I teach Strength over Headbutt, I just keep calling it Headbutt. This is just a quirk that I do from when we sometimes used to keep headbutt and never changed, so me and 5upa never bothered to change the ntoes and just read Headbutt as Strength.

Things I learnt from today: Prob go Calcium instead of a maybe Carbos. Could delay Radio 1 and go mart after to be able to buy 2 (and take centre here instead of desposit), but I still like 1, because if you got 2 it means you miss out on the special boost for Arbok, Porygon, and Weezing, and keep in mind every one you use has less effect each time.

Consider using the X Att on Erika on Jumpluff instead of Victrebeel (time diff between Leech Seed, Giga Drain and Sunny Day)

Consider 2 X Att on Blue (I hate Gyarados, apparently he can Full Restore more than once?)

Notes are wrong in a few places (Ice Punch Pikachu before Olivine, not Headbutt. Saffron is D1 not D2. I forget any others right now)

Also I mentioned this to entr in my stream, but in Gold, consider getting Elixer on Route 44 if doing early Poliwag, and incorporating that so that you don't need to heal through radio tower segment

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:20 pm

Administrative aside - Exarion started a thread for Crystal in a similar vein here: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=395. Now that we're hashing things out in finer detail, it might be the better place to bounce around Crystal-specific ideas. It definitely would be useful to have the Crystal notes/pastebins there as reference for future Crystal runners, as they might go undiscovered if they only exist in a Gold thread. I know werster and Exarion have put considerable work into rerouting Crystal the last few days (perhaps others have too?), and there's been productive routing discussion ongoing in both streams, so I have no doubts there's room for some substantive Crystal-specific discussion.

This thread is pretty well established at this point, so I don't think it makes any sense to turn it Gold-only. General ideas that might apply to both games certainly make sense here, and it's good as the primary discussion hub during these ongoing developments and refinements. But when it comes to the fine-grained, game-specific strat talk, I'm thinking it would be cleaner to keep the discussions in separate threads.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:47 am

Sinstar wrote:
entrpntr wrote:I think the best approach is to take the Goldenrod Center and get Return before stepping foot in Radio Tower. Then take the Blackthorn Center before Clair's gym (obviously this is nicer to do with early Poliwag/Blackthorn). The time you save skipping the Heal House + the time saved on movement in Goldenrod is only a second or two short of taking an extra Pokecenter, and this allows you to not have to get/use an Ether (optimally). PP is extremely tight from Blackthorn thru Lance, so I'm still taking the Lighthouse Ether with me in case things go poorly. If you get through Lance without it, you can just use it in Kanto and forgo the Elixir/Max Ether.
I did a run today and tried something like this, combined with early Poliwag and doing Vance pre radio tower, I was able to get all the way from an initial goldenrod heal to the Route 27 heal house without the ether fairly easily, the only issue being slightly tight surf pp, but I'm sure it can work very easily with more routing. The only question being if some of the extra Super Effective text such as for Biting rival's haunter is worth the timesave for taking the heal house vs a center which I've yet to time fully.
So after a couple hours of trying stuff, I probably came up with something like what you got from winging it on your test run.

Here is my attempt at a Gold PP route from start of Radio Tower quest until Heal House: http://pastebin.com/zcimNypy. You wait to teach Return until using the Escape Rope in the Underground. Saves a menu and provides just enough PP flexibility to avoid concessions. The biggest sacrifices are (1) the two Muks, since I'm waiting to teach Return, and (2) one of the L30 Koffings needs to be Ice Punched instead of Surfed, resulting in a damage range rather than a guarantee. This will actually be a 1HKO if you hit a spinner post-Feraligatr, since you'll get to L40 for one more Koffing.

I think you would still get the Ether to have the PP resources on hand if need be, and to otherwise use that as your PP item in Kanto. But this PP route on the surface appears to be more likely to play out as planned than my previous attempt, and saves ~6 seconds by taking the Heal House instead of the Blackthorn Center. I actually couldn't find any concessions you would have to make with super/not very effective text.

I included the levels of Feraligatr (assuming spinnerless) and the moves on each trainer's Pokemon. It's possible this could be adapted to Crystal to optimize the PP situation there. Provided of course there's no oversight on my part (haven't tested just yet, but Sinstar said he wound up with and tested something similar).

**EDIT: Might be better to save the Surf PP on Porygon rather than Koffing, since Koffing knows Smokescreen ...

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Sinstar » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:33 am

I think your pp route is sound as it is, I haven't tested the range of ice punch on porygon at all, but it knows conversion 2 I believe, so if you planned to ice punch it twice that could mess your pp up.

Keep up the great work.
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by werster » Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:01 pm

Alright, here's my shot at Gold notes for now https://www.dropbox.com/s/p5wn8piezo83i ... Notes.docx

And here's the support notes I use http://pastebin.com/7HhKAZ3x

In regards to the earlier things in this thread, entr your PP route through Radio to Free Heal was entirely solid, I routed it myself and couldn't find a single better change. I thought about using X Spec on lvl 30 Koffings, and just having a spare X Acc in case smokescreen that way you can IP them all and Surf Weezing, but I didn't like it that much at all. I don't like Ice Punching Porygon because as Sinstar said, it has Conversion 2 and uses it. (I'm also not getting any Ether)

Your route through Kanto is also solid, seems the most efficient to me also.

Things that are faster: I mentioned this before, getting the Elixer on Route 44 with early Poliwag is indeed faster (calcs are in pastebin) - it requires different PP management through Mahogany Base so that you use exactly 10 Strengths/Surfs, but still comes out on top.

Also, buying 1 Max Repel is faster in Gold, as it prevents using a second super on the way to Janine after Blaine (calcs in there too)

Only other thing I think is different is my money route, which I'm still not entirely sold on. I'm just trying to prevent picking up as many items as I can, as it stands I'll usually get 2 Super Potions and if I'm really unlucky get the third in Ilex Forest, but nothing else, and buy 2 Full Heals and be content with that.

Other things: Don't X Att on Jumpluff, it indeed can Cotton Spore. I didn't know you can speedtie Aerodactyl lol.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:53 pm

Sinstar wrote:I think your pp route is sound as it is, I haven't tested the range of ice punch on porygon at all, but it knows conversion 2 I believe, so if you planned to ice punch it twice that could mess your pp up.
The plan would have been to STR + BITE Porygon (instead of SURF + BITE), SURF Koffing (instead of IP), and then IP, IP the trainer with L26 Grimer & L23 Weezing (instead of STR, IP). Everything is still 1HKO besides Porygon (which is now never a 1HKO, but still a guaranteed 2HKO); just need to do a few move switches since you need to use exactly 15 Surf, 15 Strength, 15 Ice Punch.
werster wrote:Things that are faster: I mentioned this before, getting the Elixer on Route 44 with early Poliwag is indeed faster (calcs are in pastebin) - it requires different PP management through Mahogany Base so that you use exactly 10 Strengths/Surfs, but still comes out on top.
Oh I misunderstood how you wanted to use the Elixir; didn't realize you wanted to get rid of Pokecenters entirely. I was thinking a Center was going to be required, but makes sense that the heal is immediately after Mahogany, so you have lots of spare PP. Sad that it is only a 2 second save, but pretty cool that it works well together with early Poliwag.
werster wrote:Also, buying 1 Max Repel is faster in Gold, as it prevents using a second super on the way to Janine after Blaine (calcs in there too)
With this being the case, you can also buy less than the required Super Repels in Olivine, and making your count up later with Max Repels, since that is no longer a time waste. Wouldn't need to go too crazy with this, just enough to allow sufficient flexibility in Olivine shopping.
werster wrote:Only other thing I think is different is my money route, which I'm still not entirely sold on. I'm just trying to prevent picking up as many items as I can, as it stands I'll usually get 2 Super Potions and if I'm really unlucky get the third in Ilex Forest, but nothing else, and buy 2 Full Heals and be content with that.
Sinstar and I talked about this a bit yesterday. It's certainly possible something better exists, since I haven't tried tweaking items a whole lot since the Abra stuff. I had kind of thought that 3 Super Potions was necessary, but I guess (and maybe this is what you are doing) you could buy 2 more Potions in Azalea, defer Escape Ropes (or something) to Goldenrod Mart, and buy 2 Full Heals instead of 3 in Goldenrod? 1 extra item usage would be several seconds less than 1 extra item pickup, though you'd also have Escape Ropes a bit lower in your inventory. Of course you can also have some conditional shopping plans based on spinners you might have hit.

Also note there is a hidden Super Potion directly on your way to/from the Coin Case in the Underground (I'm currently not picking it up because it's unnecessary, and would rather have the one from Ilex in the off chance it comes in handy for Whitney's gym).

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:28 pm

Ah, just took a quick look over the notes and saw you are indeed doing the Potion/Full Heal/Escape Rope shopping like I thought.

Only other thing that immediately caught my eye was waiting on the Route 38 rotato. I only briefly mentioned this in passing, but there is some movement that makes the timing nice: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/460442/Route_38.mp4. This doesn't work well if you plan on ledgejumping into the grass (Repel will wear off), but it's something to consider for other possible movements.

I'll take another look later on to see if there's anything else I can add; have to sort out my own notes too with all these changes.

**EDIT: Also some really good nuggets in your support notes. Lots of details and ideas I hadn't thought of/fully explored since switching from the deathwarp to Abra/early Underground.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by werster » Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:59 pm

^I don't like where that Repel wears off even with doing the proper strat. You're going down and have to turn after 1 tile after the message or hit the Sailor, with no point of reference when you regain movement. This is extremely risky, and I usually don't hold down, I wait until I know I have movement and time it myself, therefore would lose the time I might've gained anyway
entrpntr wrote:
Sinstar wrote:I think your pp route is sound as it is, I haven't tested the range of ice punch on porygon at all, but it knows conversion 2 I believe, so if you planned to ice punch it twice that could mess your pp up.
The plan would have been to STR + BITE Porygon (instead of SURF + BITE), SURF Koffing (instead of IP), and then IP, IP the trainer with L26 Grimer & L23 Weezing (instead of STR, IP). Everything is still 1HKO besides Porygon (which is now never a 1HKO, but still a guaranteed 2HKO); just need to do a few move switches since you need to use exactly 15 Surf, 15 Strength, 15 Ice Punch.
Ahh this makes more sense. When you did the damage calcs through Radio Tower, was that using Calciums? Just wondering if they are accurate, as I'm getting 2 of them as it stands, and using them both before Ratio Tower 1. Just wondering how good those ranges are (Pory w/ Surf, Koffing w/ Ice Punch @ 39)
entrpntr wrote:
werster wrote:Also, buying 1 Max Repel is faster in Gold, as it prevents using a second super on the way to Janine after Blaine (calcs in there too)
With this being the case, you can also buy less than the required Super Repels in Olivine, and making your count up later with Max Repels, since that is no longer a time waste. Wouldn't need to go too crazy with this, just enough to allow sufficient flexibility in Olivine shopping.
I mentioned this in my supports too, I think it would be slower to do so, as Supers are at the top of your inventory with my route atm, therefore using Max Repels later on takes more time as you scroll through to the bottom of your items. Extra money wouldn't help that much past what it already is, I don't think more than 3 supers in required (one before chuck's gym, one before chuck, maaaaaybe one before clair), poliwrath is the only thing that can put you to sleep (and it's rare), kingdra is the only one who paralyses (and it's rare), only other thing you could buy is great balls for Poliwag really, or I suppose potentially buying Full Heals instead of awakening/paralz heal if you are out of Full Heals.
entrpntr wrote:Also note there is a hidden Super Potion directly on your way to/from the Coin Case in the Underground (I'm currently not picking it up because it's unnecessary, and would rather have the one from Ilex in the off chance it comes in handy for Whitney's gym).
Completely forgot about this, this could definitely come into play. Thanks!

Only other real option I can think of now is ditching the Poke Doll and catching Red Gyarados, which would be faster theoretically, free up some money, less encounter etc, but is obviously way way harder to catch, and mathematically isn't worth it on probability.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:23 pm

No Calciums (actually updated the pastebin to say that when I saw you were still getting them in Gold); I don't think I would get them since it's a decent timesink and I doubt the average case would be much faster, if faster at all. I'll have to redo the damage calcs w/2 Calciums to see exactly; just remember them not helping hit the Porygon range significantly.

The Olivine movement definitely depends on what you are doing, but thought I'd throw it out there; if you take two ledgejumps down the left side instead of just 1, the Repel doesn't wear off at a dumb location, and it's still slightly faster than the grass (plus better timing on the rotato).

I was only thinking a couple extra Max Repels; like 1 coupled with Full Restore before Red when you're already scrolling down, 1 when you are Ether/Elixiring/Max Ethering/etc. 4 Super Potions + 14 Super Repels left $1236, which was plenty, but now we're at 15 Super Repel (+ 1 Max Repel), so $736. Without taking the Olivine Center, 2 Super Potions won't always get you to a great HP for Chuck, though you'll never be in bad shape; 4 just provides complete security for Chuck and Clair, but 3 is reasonable and I never ran into too much trouble. More $$ means you could buy Great Balls, but with early Poliwag, they have less value. Anyway, any Max Repels that wouldn't involve unneeded scrolling would be worth it for more flexibility in Olivine.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by werster » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:33 pm

Ok, I agree with the second Max Repel, there's no reason not to free up that extra $500 (use it before red coupled with Full Restore)

Calciums, yeah I didn't look at the damage ranges completely, but there are a lot of really dangerous ones that it at least helps with. Golbat (rival), Golbat (Radio 2) and Dragonite (Lance) are the three off the top of my head that if you miss can easily end up costing you 20+ seconds rather than just 6-7, if you just just one more of them it's worth it imo

Also remember using Vitamins does increase your happiness, so Return would do slightly more. This is relevant (I think, didn't map out happiness perfectly for Gold) for Kingdra, Kingler, and Slowbro

Small improvement I thought of: Super Repel, (heal) equip Pink Bow and teach Waterfall/Whirlpool right before Clair in one menu instead of equipping Pink Bow when you fly.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Sinstar » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:38 pm

Ok so I'm considering what to do regarding Max Repels. I think the best strategy would be to buy 3, this allows you to buy only 13? Super Repels in Olivine, and then I can buy Hyper Potions there, which helps in a number of places with healing extra hp over supers (the main place that keeps coming to mind is if you take a lot of damage within the Chuck fight itself), then I would use the extra 2 Max Repels on the way to Mt Silver, and since they are right next to Full Restores it usually works out well with healing.
The argument against this is that hyper potions would be lower down in the menu than supers with this strategy, but since I find with the new route I am running out of supers after morty anyway I think in most runs the benefit of hypers would outweigh this. Especially since if you had hypers they might be potentially higher up if you needed to heal at some point during the elite four and not heal status such as confusion on Umbreon, so the menuing would balance out in the end.

*edit - can you get to red with only 1 max? that would obviously be better then.
Last edited by Sinstar on Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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werster
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by werster » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:55 pm

Just tested, runs out in second room sadly. So yeah, 3 maxes 13 Supers I think.

Edit: 11 Max Repels is faster than 3, so do that instead

Hyper vs Supers, I thought about this too, obviously more about Chuck than anything else. I don't think it's the right option if your health is less than 50 off max when you buy them though, you're going to heal before the Hitmons anyway (probably), and if you use another one after that a Super will p much always do the job. And if you do end up using one before Clair, a Hyper healing more health will cost you time, simply because you'll be watching HP go up for longer. The only other way I see it might be worth it, is if your Morty fight was fantastic and you aren't going to heal before Hitmons (say 13 off max with no Curse Damage)
Last edited by werster on Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Sinstar
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Sinstar » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:58 pm

werster wrote: I don't think it's the right option if your health is less than 50 off max when you buy them
This is mainly the decision I came to after thinking it over more, generally I'd buy hypers if I knew it would save a potion use at the time of buying, or my attack and defence were bad and the Chuck fight was likely to be difficult.
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entrpntr
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:42 am

New Route 38-39 movement thanks to Sinstar: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/460 ... ffDana.mp4. Only ~1.0 seconds slower by my count, so worth it even though you rarely hit Dana. Also makes the movement on Route 39 less awkward since the Repel wears off a bit earlier.

Also noteworthy, though I haven't tried to figure it out yet myself: in Crystal, Exarion was using Super Repels before Blackthorn Gym, so that the second one would run off right before the 2nd Joyce pass. Still the same number of Super Repels through Victory Road, so that would be my preferred timing for that + HM06/HM07/Super Potion/Pink Bow assuming it's also possible to set up in Gold.

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werster
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by werster » Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:59 am

Hahaha that Route 38 >_> I feel like so many of these oversights are because I routed Crystal first back in 2011 or whatever, and then Gold, and didn't look hard enough for differences

That sounds good for Joyce, should just be a bit later in gold because of Dragon Fang I think

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Exarion » Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:12 am

The main benefit of using a Super Repel before the Blackthorn Gym is to make it wear off before you Escape Rope out of Dragon's Den. This allows you to Super Repel on the Escape Rope menu, and with a few extra steps, you can get the repel to wear off for the second Joyce pass. The extra steps can be taken while waiting for the Tohjo Falls rotator. This is 0-30 frames slower than normal movement to pass the rotator (depending on your reaction time), but I think that's worth it to avoid a pause buffer/YOLO on the second Joyce pass.
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werster
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by werster » Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:40 am

I didn't have to take any extra steps, as you have to step around trainers on Route 27 in Gold. It seems it's +1 for me, which still works whether you go left or up, and you can't do an extra odd number anyway.

First Super should be used about here in Gold: http://puu.sh/geooD/87894c54fd.png I think you can go plus or minus 2 steps from there.

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