Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Sinstar » Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:03 am

Exarion wrote:
With regard to PP flexibility, could you use just an Ether on Surf from Lance heal until the heal house? That would be quite a bit faster than picking up the Route 44 Elixer or taking the center.
I like taking the center for the health benefit, I find it much less likely that you have to heal before clair if you center, would the ether save enough time to negate this disadvantage?
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:09 am

Exarion wrote:No Ice Punch for Poliwag is annoying. I see four options, none of which is clearly best:
1) Catch Poliwag in Ecruteak after Morty (damage with Scratch, Bite or Headbutt)
2) Catch Poliwag in Ecruteak after Chuck, chucking balls when they're at lower levels (may require buying more)
3) Catch Poliwag early on Route 44, chucking balls when they're at lower levels (may require buying more)
4) Catch Poliwag late on Route 44 (old strats), chucking balls at everything except Poliwhirl (requires buying more)
The percentage play of these is probably (1). You can attack any of the Poliwags, and attack Poliwhirl twice if you get unlucky. You maybe have to waste a Headbutt on higher level Poliwags, since Bite doesn't deal too much damage. With (4), you would have Ice Punch, but still can't attack lower levels.
Sinstar wrote:So basically we have a free moveslot, we can basically keep any move and get through the run. So our options would be:

1. Scratch: possiblity of saving se text/headbutt pp in Morty segment, ranges that will be have to be looked at that can weaken poliwags.

2. Water Gun: Can use it on growlithes in lighthouse and some other things to finish off, could also be used to weaken poliwags, but I can imagine would be less favourable to scratch in terms of damage? this would need to be looked at. You could also keep scratch with this up to morty.

3. rage/fury cutter: almost certainly inferior to the above.

4. Headbutt: possibility for flinches in Chuck's gym, including on Poliwrath, but you can't weaken any low level poliwags with early poliwag.
If you plan on using Fury Cutter on Whitney regardless, I think my plan works best:

Code: Select all

Scratch    -->  Surf (after Kimonos)
Leer       -->  Headbutt (after Ilex)      -->  Ice Punch (after UG?)
Rage       -->  Fury Cutter (after Bugsy)  -->  Bite (learn L21)       -->  Return (after UG?)
Water Gun  -->  Strength (before Kaylee)
Exarion wrote:With regard to PP flexibility, could you use just an Ether on Surf from Lance heal until the heal house? That would be quite a bit faster than picking up the Route 44 Elixer or taking the center.
Without taking a hard look at how things play out, Ether/teaching Slash would seem to be the two fastest options, depending on how far you need to stretch PP.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:37 pm

Haven't done a full PP reroute, but went through to see when moves started/stopped becoming useful:

After buying Ice Punch in the second Goldenrod Mart trip, the first important use is on the Underground Rival fight (Golbat/Meganium; also saves a Surf on Haunter). I can't think of any menu offhand except perhaps a Bike menu where this would be convenient to use. If you have the Bitter Berry equipped, you could possibly do an X Attack strat to get Golbat with Strength (on good attack) and Meganium with Headbutt x2, but using the extra menu is probably better than this anyway.

Headbutt is definitely nice for that L25 Muk (though you'd have to use Surf turn 2 if it Hardens) and saves Strength PP elsewhere in Radio Tower 1. Bite is of course really nice for the Rocket Exec with the Koffings/Weezing when using the X Special strat. Both moves conserve some PP in the Underground, Radio Tower pt 2, and Clair's gym (Headbutt is also good for Vance); both also get flinch chances on the Seadra's in Clair's gym while still 2HKO'ing. Return doesn't have any added benefit over other moves until Clair's Kingdra.

So I guess we're probably looking to teach Ice Punch after Radio Tower pt 1 (not sure over which move yet). Then Return could ideally be taught sometime after the last Seadra trainer in Clair's gym but before Clair (could be coupled with Super Potion/Super Repel/HM06/HM07, but this means you can't couple the Super Repel with the Escape Rope out of the Dragon's Den). If the flinch chances add up to more time saved than the extra menus cost, I don't think anyone's going to complain.

Last issues are Vance-related. The important missed levels by delaying Vance (1208 xp) are: L39 for the L30 Porygon (by 919 xp), L44 for the L32 Vileplume (by 302 xp), as well as chances to get L44 for the L36 Golbat (2628 xp short; Douglas/Kaylee + Vance would have gotten there) and the L32 Arbok (by 1310 xp; Benjamin/Ernest + Vance would have gotten there). The swapped gym order also means you have worse ranges on Pryce's Seel and Dewgong if you don't hit Douglas, although we'd have a menu to Protein on if we use an Escape Rope from Mahogany Hideout as suggested. That's the same list of concerns from Ecruteak Poliwag that we had before, minus the L25 Muk.

However, delaying Vance keeps you at L44 for Route 44 Poliwag by 1063 xp (when spinnerless), so you'll be short of L45 unless you hit a spinner not named Benjamin. L44 would make L27-L29 Poliwags and Poliwhirl very safe to attack, and Ice Punching L26s might be the percentage play over just chucking balls (15 spc DV Feraligatr vs 5 HP/5 Spc DV L26 Poliwags is only ~43.6% to OHKO on non-crits). You'd have to commit to a gym order before Ernest or Douglas, so only Kaylee could open up an option of whether to do post-Chuck Poliwag, early Route 44 Poliwag, or late Route 44 Poliwag. This approach could be an alternative to post-Morty, but it doesn't seem very appealing.

We'll have to map things out from here to see how constrained we are with PP for each move to get a more concrete idea of what options are best for PP management.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Sinstar » Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:02 pm

So I went through the pp route from Lance heal to Heal House with the ether and it does just work out,

this assumes either late Route 44 or post Morty Poliwag in terms of pp.

Here's what I came up with just quickly: http://pastebin.com/NF0ibpKF

You probably can't teach return any later than normal with this strat, as strengths and headbutts are all used before clair, but there might be possible workarounds as I haven't looked into that at all.
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:40 pm

Yeah I tried everything I could think of and only came up with two things that worked. One was something pretty much the same as yours. The other didn't get the Ether, and instead took the normal Goldenrod Center (before Radio Tower 1); you can teach Ice Punch over Headbutt in the same place and keep Bite through the Seadras before teaching Return. The benefits are (1) you're not short 1 Surf (and this isn't an actual advantage on good attack), (2) if you kept the Bitter Berry, you can X Spc + Surf the Golbat to save SE text, (3) you get the HP heal so you are less likely to need to heal before Clair, (4) you get a shot at flinching the two Seadras. I'm guessing it's too slow to make it the better option but I could be wrong. ***EDIT: In case you wanted to see what it looks like: http://pastebin.com/YAgiX4kN.

In the other route I came up with, I only had a few differences from yours:
  • That Raticate is a damage range with Strength (and the first two Raticates in Radio Tower 1 are ranges with Headbutt on bad attack). At 11+ atk DV, Strength is [basically] guaranteed to kill it, but otherwise it's not. The only other good place to save a Surf is on the Porygon with Headbutt; you give up on the damage range, but at least try to get a flinch out of it. It's probably a better play to Strength the Raticate except on very bad attack (at 5 DV, it's still about 60% to hit, including crits).
  • HB + HB won't get the Muk if he Hardens; HB + STR should get there most of the time, and only really bad attack should introduce a noticeable risk of missing the range.
  • The menu I came up with was to combine using Ether, teaching Ice Punch, and using Calciums (if you bought them) in Radio Tower. You can do this before the Porygon fight, or after if you are using Headbutt on the Porygon instead of Surf. I think this should come out a little faster since you are only entering the inventory once.
Apart from that, our routes are identical. Swapping HB and Strength PP in a few places shouldn't be an issue, though it might get a little hairy on bad attack if you hit Ernest (you just need to be in a spot where you can recover from this).

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Keizaron » Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:08 pm

So with a possible change in the shop, I'm assuming we wouldn't have to sell TMs until the second trip (or at all), yes? Has that been accounted for at all? I'd imagine if we could put that off, we could skip selling TMs completely and skip Calciums ( BibleThump ) since our money would be enough for X items for the second trip.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Exarion » Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:56 pm

You'd sell TMs on the first trip. It's such an efficient sell (~8 seconds for $3000) that it's worth it even when money isn't tight. You'd probably have to pick up Full Heals/Super Potions rather than buy them if you didn't sell the TMs.
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Sinstar » Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:07 pm

My new shopping route buys 2 extra escape ropes, which save around 6 seconds, and super potions which allow you to skip picking 2 up for about a 10 second save, definitely worth the sell imo.
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Sinstar » Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:14 pm

entrpntr wrote: [*]The menu I came up with was to combine using Ether, teaching Ice Punch, and using Calciums (if you bought them) in Radio Tower. You can do this before the Porygon fight, or after if you are using Headbutt on the Porygon instead of Surf. I think this should come out a little faster since you are only entering the inventory once.[/list]
Apart from that, our routes are identical. Swapping HB and Strength PP in a few places shouldn't be an issue, though it might get a little hairy on bad attack if you hit Ernest (you just need to be in a spot where you can recover from this).
I never really looked into when to teach ice punch, that sounds good.

Headbutts and Strengths can be swapped in and out until you teach Ice Punch, and you actually have spare strengths/returns at the end, but using extra strengths over headbutts early reduces your leeway on return pp before heal house, so there's probably a way to eliminate damage ranges, again I was just quickly going through guessing the ranges.

In my test run I hit ernest on second pass, I got around this by teaching slash over Headbutt for a small time loss, I'm not sure if Headbutt is guarunteed to kill everything on ernest but I imagine it would.

The thing I was wondering when teaching slash is whether it would be ever worth going for the crit as opposed to a range, not worth it if you can avoid teaching it but if you do have to it may be worth considering, although I don't think there should be any ranges other than porygon that this applies to.
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:36 pm

Sinstar wrote:The thing I was wondering when teaching slash is whether it would be ever worth going for the crit as opposed to a range, not worth it if you can avoid teaching it but if you do have to it may be worth considering, although I don't think there should be any ranges other than porygon that this applies to.
The L25 Muk and L30 Porygon should be the only two where it can make OHKOs more likely (it also saves a Surf PP in the Porygon fight while still giving a decent chance at OHKOing). Think I measured it at taking like 3 seconds longer to teach than abandon, but it doesn't help you save Surf PP (not enough to skip the Ether anyway), so it is probably only useful as a last resort if things go badly wrong with PP before you get to L38.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Keizaron » Tue Mar 31, 2015 6:37 am

Return in slot 3 bothers me for some reason.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Sinstar » Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:08 pm

I'm actually doing 2 swaps to get return to slot 1 lol, I'd rather just keep the move order somewhat similar to my muscle memory.
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:55 pm

I'm a little bit rusty at the early game and don't know what everyone else is doing for shopping right now, but I think buying Paralyz Heal(s) in Azalea should be considered. You'll have the Przcureberry for Rival 2's Gastly, but there are several other places you can get paralyzed following the battle before you reach Olivine (L18 Snubbull, L17 Jolteon, Morty's Gastly). Even if you don't use it in any of those battles, there is still a decent chance it will be used later in the game. The Paralyz Heal will basically act as a $200 Full Heal a decent percentage of the time and save up a bit of money for the couple seconds it takes to buy it.

Here's the shopping I came up with (numbers assume spinnerless and selling TMs in Goldenrod):

Code: Select all

Azalea ($5464)               Goldenrod ($6992 + $264 = $7256)

4 Potion ($300)              1 X Speed ($350)
3 Super Potion ($700)        1 X Special ($350)
4 Repel ($350)               2 X Attack ($500)
3 Antidote ($100)
1 Paralyz Heal ($200)        5 Escape Rope ($550)
                             3 Full Heal ($600)
                             1 Poke Doll ($1000)
_____________________        ____________________
= $264 left                  = $6 left
I think it would still be a good idea to get the Slowpoke Well Full Heal (it would be the ideal item to skip, but unfortunately you can't buy Awakenings in Azalea; otherwise might be a different story) and probably 1 Super Potion (Route 31 is nice for the Anthony fight if you don't have a Potion to use on the pause buffer). You'd be in okay shape with healing items, especially if you left Falkner's gym with a Potion or Berry, and the Underground Super Potion would be available in case of an emergency. With 3 Antidotes, the Paralyz Heal, and 4 Full Heals, you should be in good shape to not have to buy any Awakenings/Paralyz Heals in Olivine compared to other shopping methods.

If you hit a spinner, you would probably want to buy another Potion, though you would be $6 short with Bill. You could do a number of other things as well (2 Paralyz Heals | 2 Super Potions, 7 Potions | 4 Super Potions, 3 Potions, 0 Paralyz Heals).

It really depends on how runs typically play out, so other runners may have more insight on whether this is prudent, or if the money is better utilized in other ways. You can't really do too much differently in Azalea without selling Mud-Slap or going down to 2 Antidotes, and there's nothing worth buying extra of in Goldenrod besides Full Heals (except for X Speeds if you can afford enough to avoid buying any in the second Mart trip), so it strikes me as a pretty solid option.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:59 am

Looked briefly at possibly running 12/12/10/10/10 Totos, with the plan of resetting at L6 with 13 atk. Some important milestones for figuring out which specials would be worth running (this applies to the 13/12/10/10/10s as well):

8 DV so that Bayleef's Razor Leaf can't 2-hit you at L18
9 DV (w/2 Calciums) so that Dragonite is still favorable at L53 (66.7% vs 38.5% at 8 DV)
10 DV to ensure 1HKOs on Clair's Dragonairs (92.3% from 7-9 DV).
11 DV to ensure 1HKO on Karen's Gengar (still 89.7-92.3% for 8-10 DV). You'll also get better ranges on the L30 Golbat, L36 Golbat, and L32 Vileplume than at 10 DV or lower.

Besides that, it looks like you still kill everything you need to, and the only place where damage ranges appear to become less likely is in the Radio Tower section. This would be offset by the ranges and flexibility in fights that you get with good attack.

You would find out at L6 whether you have 6-9 spc DV or 10-11 spc DV, and find out at L7 if you have 6-8 spc DV or 9 spc DV. After that, you would need to wait until L13 to find out if you had 8 DV special. Given how bad Dragonite is at 8 DV anyway, I think drawing the line at 9 or 10 DV makes the most sense.

Taking Totos with 10+ atk / 10+ spc would mean 2.64% more Totodiles are runnable. Totos with 10+ atk / 9+ spc would mean 3.96% more in total. These Totos seem more appealing to me than a lot of bad attack / bad speed Totos; only issue is unrunnable ones take a bit longer on average to reset since you have to wait 5-10 more minutes a decent chunk of the time. Only 1/6th (16.7%) of 12/12/10/10/10s will get 14/x/11/12/x at L6 and only 25% of 14/x/11/11/x will get x/x/12/13/x at L7. Right now, I'm leaning towards the L6 resets so that the Dragonairs are ensured and only a couple Pokemon present an issue if you end up with 10 special.

I'd be interested to see what others think of running these questionable Totodiles.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:56 am

So after looking more into things, I don't like the ideas in either of my last two posts. I'd rather wait until Olivine to see how I'm doing with Full Heals than buy a single Paralyz Heal ahead of time. Right now when I go spinnerless, I like 5 Potion / 3 Super Potion / 4 Repel / 2 Antidote in Azalea. Since I'm always getting the Slowpoke Well Full Heal and buying 3 Full Heals in Goldenrod, 2 Antidotes are acceptable, though not ideal.

The 12/12/10/10/10s are almost certainly not worth running. I still want to be reasonably selective with stats, but L6 resets can be done better with other Totos. Think I've settled on the following:

Code: Select all

L5 stats to continue          L6 stats to continue

12+/x/10/11/10  (9.67%)  ——>  all          (9.67%)
13/x/10/11/9    (0.68%)  ——>  all          (0.68%)
12/12/10/11/9   (4.27%)  ——>  14/x/x/x/x   (2.14%)  
13/x/10/10/10   (1.32%)  ——>  x/x/11/12/x  (0.44%)
__________________________________________________
               (15.94%)  ——>              (12.93%)
This cuts out a lot of the bad attack/bad speed Totos that can cause trouble throughout the run. The 12/12/10/11/9s that don't get 14 attack at L6 can be continued with a good time at Rival 1.

For pre-Feraligatr experience, I'm trying out Sudowoodo again if I don't hit a spinner; I haven't tested it thoroughly enough yet, but I like it better than killing Union Cave encounters or waiting for Tentas. Now that we have money to buy more healing items, the fight is less worrisome. Sudowoodo gives 385 experience, which gets the two levels you can get for the Kimono Girls (L23 after first, L24 after third). The only way the experience becomes for naught is if you hit Ernest, whereas Bill/Anthony/Benny are still lurking by the time you can start killing Union Cave encounters. You also avoid having to possibly deal with Tentacruels.

I also think fighting Josh (L13 Paras) instead of Al (L12 Caterpie/Weedle) in Bugsy's gym is now worth it a large amount of the time (Leer + Scratch x2-3). If you get Poisoned by the Spinarak, Josh is definitely nicer to fight since you'll only get Scratch (EDIT: and thus you can Rage x3); you can Antidote/[Super] Potion/give Przcureberry while buffering Benny. The fight comes out consistently faster by 5-10 seconds even if you don't enter statused and means you only have to pass Benny once. Josh also gets $16 more than Al, so hitting Bill would give enough to buy an extra Potion (or possibly other options, depending on how you're shopping).

The main drawbacks are (1) if you don't enter statused, you risk having to use your Full Heal to cure off Paralysis if Stun Spore hits; (2) 73 less experience than Al. With 73 less experience, the Sudowoodo still gives the relevant levels for the Kimono girls, so it pairs well with Josh. L15 Tentacools and 3 Union Cave encounters will both be short if you fight Josh, so they don't reap the same benefit. It'll boil down to whether the healing items work out, but from strictly a time standpoint, it looks like the better option.

Notes about the fight:
  • With no spinners/wild pokemon, you'll be short 16 experience of L20 for Whitney's Miltank, but this should only matter on Fury Cutter strats if you have 15 atk DV (in which case, fight a Union Cave encounter). The Union Cave encounter will also give just enough stat exp for 15 atk DV to make a significant impact on the Paras 2HKO range. Fighting a Union Cave encounter will also give 9 atk DV an outside chance of the 2HKO (joining 10-14 atk DV).
  • If you get 332 optional experience, you'll be L17 for Paras, which makes him a 2HKO possibility on all attacks (and a very favorable one on higher attack).
  • With Josh, you need 386 optional experience to get L18 for Bugsy's Scyther. At L17, 5-15 atk DV all do the same damage with Rage on Scyther (~64% to 2HKO with Rage 5 + Rage 6). At L18, 5-7 atk DV remain unchanged from L17, but 8+ atk DV have their ranges improved to make it guaranteed, and even Rage 4 + Rage 5 has a shot at 2HKOing. If the 73 experience makes the difference between L17 and L18, it may not be worth it to fight Josh with 8+ atk DV, but there's no reason not to with 5-7 atk DV.
  • If you hit Anthony, there is basically no drawback to fighting Josh; you will still hit all important levels.
A few other important notes on early game fights: (1) werster mentioned this in his notes, but with 15 atk DV, using Rage on Albert is clearly better than Scratch since Rattata will usually be 2-hit by Rage 1 + Rage 2; (2) if fighting Ralph, using Leer + Scratch x3 on Goldeen is best if you have 5-11 atk DV; 12+ atk DV Scratch x4 will kill almost all the time and can 3-hit with a crit so it's probably better in those cases; (3) using Leer turn 1 if you hit Daniel (L11 Onix) at L12 makes that fight ridiculously faster and safer (should kill with 6 Rages). Additional Leers do not do anything to make the fight faster, so stick with 1.
Last edited by entrpntr on Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by shantiee » Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:53 pm

I was trying to run with 12/12/10/10/10 and 12/11/10/10/10 and I remember that with 11 defense I was getting 14 attack and 12 speed @6 quite often. Also I had few 11/12 Spc. But somehow I couldn't get good attack and speed with 12/12/10/10/10. I don't really know what to think about this, but isn't it worth to run with decent attack and great speed?

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Sinstar » Sat Apr 04, 2015 4:13 pm

shantiee wrote:I was trying to run with 12/12/10/10/10 and 12/11/10/10/10 and I remember that with 11 defense I was getting 14 attack and 12 speed @6 quite often. Also I had few 11/12 Spc. But somehow I couldn't get good attack and speed with 12/12/10/10/10. I don't really know what to think about this, but isn't it worth to run with decent attack and great speed?
In theory a 12/12/10/10/10 that gets 11/12 at l6 is perfectly runnable, however it's only 1/3 of those toto's that get that, and even less get the attack and speed, wasting 5 minutes going to rival only to reset more than 1/3 of the time doesn't seem worth it after trying this out, it's better to spend those 5 minutes on 2 more resets in the lab and give yourself more chance at a 12/x/10/11/10 toto.
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Sat Apr 04, 2015 4:43 pm

Yeah, exactly what Sinstar said. Going for good atk/spc at L6 on those Totos is 1/6 for 5 minutes to get Totos that are runnable, but aren''t anything to write home about.

Unless there is something we don't know about in Gen 2 that makes starter Pokemon's stat combinations not independent/identically distributed (apart from HP DV), I think what you noticed is a fluke. Obviously perfect speed is nice (speedtie Aerodactyl @ L54!), but the difference between 11 and 12 speed at L6 is still a much smaller deal than any other stat difference at L6 in my estimation. Running bad speed can get you into trouble all over the place (early game in general, Rival 2, Karen's Gengar, Sabrina's Alakazam, probably more that I'm not thinking of offhand), so it's more about avoiding bad speed.
Last edited by entrpntr on Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:00 pm

Couple more insights/observations I came up with while refining my notes.


Menus (including a faster one for Squirtbottle)

First, I checked out the major menuing questions to see what I found. Exarion's finding that 2 horizontal menu shifts to get to the Bike make it slower than biking with select checks out, but it's only faster by frames and there is a lot of lag to deal with that makes it hard to get consistently (not sure if this is just a Gold thing) (EDIT: I'm dumb, this is only when using select IMMEDIATELY after closing the menu, which is how I was doing it for testing, but not how it would be done in practice).

Using Cut/Surf/Strength while the menu is open is faster than closing the menu by a good half a second at least, but I don't think this was ever really in question.

At the intersection of these two types of menus is Squirtbottle. It seems everyone has been doing this from outside the menu, but I found it was faster by ~0.7 seconds to use it while in the menu where you switch Croconaw with your cutter after the double deposit (there's a LOT of lag between textboxes doing it outside the menu). See (A) https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/460 ... tomenu.mp4 (~8.45 seconds from exiting Pokemon menu to clearing "The weird tree attacked!" textbox) vs (B) https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/460 ... tWithA.mp4 (~9.14 seconds).


Rare Candy skip possibility

If you hit Benny + Ernest, you can skip the Rare Candy (~15 second save) and get L30 after Hitmonlee. At L29 with Croconaw, HB + STR is a guaranteed kill with 7+ atk DV, and should still kill ~95% of the time with 5-6. You need 12-13 spd DV to speedtie the Hitmonlee and 14-15 to outspeed it. Since a Headbutt crit doesn't always kill, you would use Strength turn 1 if slower.

This leaves you 782 experience short for the lategame (709 if you fought Al instead of Josh), but this can be worked around. If you don't hit Kaylee/Benjamin, you'll only be L34 for the Gloom. I thought this might be an issue, but I only saw Absorb from this Gloom in testing. You can still kill at L34 with good attack (9-10 DV = 2.6%; 11-13 DV: 10.3%; 14-15 DV: 20.5%), but it may be more prudent to Headbutt and try to flinch regardless.

The experience only becomes a real problem in Radio Tower (missing L40 for Underground Rival's Golbat being the big one; also miss L38 for first Koffing, L41 for the L23 Muk which waste time and may mess up PP mgmt). Thus, if you fail to hit Kaylee/Benjamin/Douglas and don't have the Bitter Berry equpped, I think you'd want to do early Blackthorn after Jasmine to make up the experience for that section with the 1208xp from Vance, at the cost of ~7-8 seconds in movement.

Post-Radio Tower, I believe only 2 Pokemon present potential issues due to missed levels: Clair's first Dragonair (miss L46, so Ice Punch is not guaranteed unless you have 13+ spc DV AND bought Calciums) and Blue's Arcanine IF it's sent out before Rhydon (miss L62, so 2 X Atks is only [basically] guaranteed with 11+ atk DV or better, rather than 9+). Both of these are pretty minor and Arcanine can be worked around by using 3 X Attacks on 9-10 atk DV (though it may be the percentage play to roll with 2 anyway).

All that said, having to fight Hitmonlee as Croconaw looks to be the only major issue with skipping the Rare Candy. At the very least, it's a good play with 12+ speed DV; with lower speed it's a closer call.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Sinstar » Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:27 am

entrpntr wrote: At the intersection of these two types of menus is Squirtbottle. It seems everyone has been doing this from outside the menu, but I found it was faster by ~0.7 seconds to use it while in the menu where you switch Croconaw with your cutter after the double deposit (there's a LOT of lag between textboxes doing it outside the menu). See (A) https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/460 ... tomenu.mp4 (~8.45 seconds from exiting Pokemon menu to clearing "The weird tree attacked!" textbox) vs (B) https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/460 ... tWithA.mp4 (~9.14 seconds).
Underscore pointed this possibility out the other day, I timed it and agree with your timings.

entrpntr wrote: If you hit Benny + Ernest, you can skip the Rare Candy (~15 second save) and get L30 after Hitmonlee. At L29 with Croconaw, HB + STR is a guaranteed kill with 7+ atk DV, and should still kill ~95% of the time with 5-6. You need 12-13 spd DV to speedtie the Hitmonlee and 14-15 to outspeed it. Since a Headbutt crit doesn't always kill, you would use Strength turn 1 if slower.
Funnily enough in a run recently I hit Benny and Enrenst and decided to try this out on the fly, except I picked up the rare candy and used it to get 39 for porygon, 42 for the second muk, 44 for golbat etc, and 54 for dragonite on either 12 or 13 Special DV (don't remember which), Hitmonlee wasn't too bad because it missed jump kick, I'd definitely do either this or the skip again if this situation arose again.
Kappa Kappa Kappa Kappa

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:46 am

So I've come up with a lot of pretty minor stuff over the last week and a half. I think I've finally exhausted all of my good ideas for the time being, so I'll post what I've got here.


11 defense Totodiles

Sinstar had suggested that for some Totodiles, it may make sense to kill wild encounters before Rival 1, since it would make L6 resets faster and also make a lot of fights through Falkner easier. I was highly skeptical at first, but after a decent amount of testing, I think this is what I am going to do from now on with 11 defense Totodiles.

I'm taking the Berry from these Totodiles, and killing any encounter I get (except Metapods) until I'm L6 for Rival (or if I didn't get enough encounters to get L6, I'll even kill some after to get the needed exp). Here's the exp thresholds:

Code: Select all

    -  44 to get  L6 for L5 Chikorita (Rival 1)
    -  34 to get  L7 (Rage) for L2 Pidgey (Mikey)
    -  12 to get  L7 for L4 Rattata (Mikey)
    -  42 to get  L8 for L9 Spearow (Abe)
    -  36 to get  L9 for L7 Pidgey (Rod #1)
    -  13 to get L10 for L7 Pidgey (Falkner)
With 14 atk at L6, the Rival fight should be a turn faster. Rage for Mikey will usually also result in 1 turn saved. However, the important part really is Falkner's gym. The Spearow will now do 6 (usually) instead of 8 and a crit (~23% to have at least 1) won't end your run. You also have an outside shot of 3-hitting it, but surviving is the more crucial aspect. Also, you get L9 for Rod, which means the only way his Pidgeys do 5 is with 0 DV defense. The levels also help clearing some speed thresholds, and if you hit Don, his Caterpies will only do 1. You will always be safe with just getting the Route 30 Berry and Potion, and often leave Falkner's gym with a Potion still in hand. All told, I think the extra encounters cost somewhere around 10 seconds on average, but they greatly increase the survivability of these Totos through Falkner, which I think is vastly more important. I've still had very respectable Falkner times in testing.

Since 11 defense is safe through Falkner with this approach, I've added 12/11/10/11/9 to the Totos that I am accepting. Here's my updated list of what I'm running with:

Code: Select all

L5 stats to continue          L6 stats to continue

12+/x/10/11/10  (9.67%)  ——>  all          (9.67%)
12/12/10/11/9   (4.27%)  ——>  14/x/x/x/x   (2.14%)
12/11/10/11/9   (2.56%)  ——>  14/x/x/x/x   (1.54%)
                              13/x/x/x/11  (0.15%)
13/x/10/10/10   (1.32%)  ——>  x/x/11/12/x  (0.44%)
13/x/10/11/9    (0.68%)  ——>  all          (0.68%)
__________________________________________________
               (18.51%)  ——>              (14.61%)

>> Can also continue 12/x/10/11/9s that don’t get desired stats but have good times at Rival 1.
Note that the extra encounters will give the stat exp to push 9 atk DV to 14 atk at L6, and everything except two Sentrets will push 6 spd DV to 11 spd at L6. There are some extra things that the stat exp affects, but those are the two most pertinent ones.


Paralyz Heal(s) in Azalea

Now that I am fighting Josh instead of Al, I am back to buying Paralyz Heal(s) in Azalea. The added chance of getting Stun Spored makes this a wise decision to preserve the Azalea Full Heal for better spots, and he's so much faster than fighting Al that the couple extra seconds it takes to buy them is easily worth it.


Earliest Underground

In his first 3:21, Sinstar fought Donald/Teru before doing Whitney's gym. I didn't see the point at the time, but L21 for Whitney means Fury Cutter 5 will 1-hit Miltank with 10-14 atk DV (15 was already a guarantee). This should not be worth it normally, since the Slowpokes take longer (especially if you get Growled), Snubbull isn't that likely to die in 2 hits, you have to teach Bite over Scratch/Water Gun instead of Fury Cutter, and the main reasons you die to Whitney (Stomp flinch or missed Fury Cutter) haven't been mitigated. However, with 418 optional experience & 10-14 atk DV, I am doing this since you hit L20 for the second Slowpoke (meaning Headbutt will 2-hit both even if you get Growled), you get L21 for Snubbull (which turns Headbutt into a very likely 2-hit), and you save a turn on Miltank and mitigate some of the risk. I'm planning on teaching Bite over Water Gun when I do this, since you've already fought the Magnemites and Scratch has a lot of value against Greg and the Kimonos with the 10-14 atk Totos.


Kimono Orders

Since I am fighting Sudowoodo (385 exp) if I haven't fought a spinner (or if I've only got experience from Don/wild encounters), I am essentially always getting L23 for the second Kimono and L24 for the fourth Kimono. If I get hit by Daniel/Bill, I am fighting Union Cave encounters anyway to get some useful levels. Here's the notes I have on what thresholds make a difference when deciding to fight Union Cave encounters, now that I'm fighting Josh:

Code: Select all

	- 280 for L19 on L16 Bayleef  (only 0-3 spd DV)
	- 287 for L24 on Kimono #4    (± 3 exp)
	- 319 for L16 on L14 Koffing  (only 12-15 spc DV)
	- 332 for L17 on L13 Paras
	- 338 for L23 on Kimono #2    (± 3 exp)
	- 386 for L18 on L16 Scyther  (only 8-15 atk DV; prob not worth it alone)

[Only included as reference]
	- 345 for L28 on L23 Haunter (Morty)
	- 431 for L26 on L22 Haunter (Jeffrey)
The extra levels for the Kimono Girls make it a lot easier to draw up a decision table on what order to fight them in. Here's what I'm doing:

Code: Select all

 0-8 speed: Espeon/Flareon/Jolteon/Vaporeon/Umbreon

9-14 speed: Flareon/Umbreon/Jolteon/Espeon/Vaporeon (12-15 atk)
      (OR)  Jolteon         Flareon                 (can switch; just fight Jolteon on high HP)

            Jolteon/Vaporeon/Flareon/Espeon/Umbreon ( 5-11 atk)

  15 speed: Flareon/Espeon/Jolteon/Vaporeon/Umbreon
Poliwag

New decision table I'm using with post-Morty Poliwag:

Code: Select all

    - L15-16     ==>  WG
    - L17-23     ==>  BITE
    - L24        ==>  HB
    - Poliwhirl  ==>  HB (+ HB/BITE)
Headbutting the L24 and Poliwhirls can appreciably change the catch rate (for instance, 86.6% for Poliwags with 20% health vs 66.1% for 50% health); I think a Headbutt is better utilized on a L24 Poliwag than on everything in Chuck's gym except for Poliwrath/Hitmonlee. I'd Headbutt L23s as well if I had bad attack.


Calciums

Updated notes on Calciums with new strats, which I haven't figured out how to format nicely for pastebin: http://i.imgur.com/bklHW14.png. I left my conclusion for what I am doing in the document, but others might choose differently in when to get the Calciums.


Max Repel usage

You can use a Max Repel right after getting off the S.S. Aqua (or Super Repel and Max Repel later) and combine it with Flying to Vermillion in order to save a menu. The menu saves ~1.5 seconds, and it was taking me like 1.2 seconds to scroll to the Max Repel. If scrolling took no time, you could also Max Repel at the cut tree after Surge and combine that with the Poke Flute / Cutting from the menu to save ~0.6 seconds, but the scrolling is more time than it's worth. I was finding it to be ~2 seconds to move Max Repels to the top of the menu, but I can't find any reason this is worth doing either. So I think the only change is for the S.S. Aqua, and you can buy 10 Super Repels in Olivine.


======================


I think that's everything that I came up with that actually worked; lots of stuff I came up with sadly didn't.

After seeing some of Sinstar's recent runs, and having my own tonight (~1 minute ahead of WR through Morty despite a below average time entering Slowpoke Well), I'm currently of the belief that 3:18 is a very achievable time, and that 3:17 is probably the lowest sane goal with current strats.

***EDIT: Added in Poliwag table.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Keizaron » Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:52 am

entrpntr wrote:You can use a Max Repel right after getting off the S.S. Aqua (or Super Repel and Max Repel later) and combine it with Flying to Vermillion in order to save a menu.
Would Super then Max make more sense since that's less scrolling that way? Supers in slot 1 then Max in slot whatever.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Sun Apr 12, 2015 1:58 pm

Keizaron wrote:
entrpntr wrote:You can use a Max Repel right after getting off the S.S. Aqua (or Super Repel and Max Repel later) and combine it with Flying to Vermillion in order to save a menu.
Would Super then Max make more sense since that's less scrolling that way? Supers in slot 1 then Max in slot whatever.
Cursor gets reset after fighting Hiker Jim if I'm not mistaken.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Keizaron » Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:50 am

entrpntr wrote:Cursor gets reset after fighting Hiker Jim if I'm not mistaken.
Completely forgot about him. Carry on.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Sat Apr 18, 2015 3:08 am

I've been doing my last route-thru (barring any more developments) and came up with one more thing to share for now.
entrpntr wrote:The menu I came up with was to combine using Ether, teaching Ice Punch, and using Calciums (if you bought them) in Radio Tower. You can do this before the Porygon fight, or after if you are using Headbutt on the Porygon instead of Surf. I think this should come out a little faster since you are only entering the inventory once.
Here's a way to do this and save 14 frames of movement (vs wasting 2 tiles): https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/460 ... vement.mp4. You can see even Scientist Rich is impressed by this PhD level tech.

I had always wanted to single bonk here before, but it didn't waste quite enough time. Mountebank snuck in an edit on his spinner pastebin that it takes 2 extra frames to move after a pause buffer, but that spinners' counters are still ticking during those 2 frames. That gave me the idea to try it out again, and the result delights me greatly. I don't think there is a way to improve on this; I believe this wastes 20 frames (16 for bonk + 2 for turnframe + 2 for pause?), and if you only waste 18, the rotater hits you. The 2 frames from the pause menu are always going to be wasted in the Ether & Ice Punch menu, hence why it is 14 frames faster (32 for two tiles wasted + 2 for pause = 34 frames). If you miss the first bonk, there are 3 backup bonks, so it's not very hard to execute optimally.

Similarly, if you get poisoned during the Rocket Exec fight, this is the best place to heal it off: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/460 ... teMenu.mp4. Again, the 2 frames from the pause menu waste just enough time to pass the rotater.

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