Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

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Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:18 am

EDIT (28 Apr 15): Added summary of thread, OP is below

EDIT (20 Jun 15): Updated notes and editor commentary thereof

Summary of major route changes used in current runs, in the order they were implemented:
  1. Surf from Cinnabar to Fuchsia to fight Janine, rather than going on Cycling Road, skipping 1 stander (Bob) + 1 spinner (Joel) (credit: ryziken)
  2. Use Abra to skip Route 35 and Rock Tunnel pt 2, skipping 3 standers (Kim, Ivan, Arnie) + 1 spinner (Irwin); entails fighting trainers in underground earlier to get Coin Case, as well as a second Goldenrod Mart trip (credit: Shenanagans, ryziken)
  3. Acquire Return on second Mart trip and forgo Earthquake later; get Pink Bow from Mary after Radio Tower quest to give boost power of Return & Strength (credit: iMAX1UP, Lembox, werster)
  4. New Kanto order: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=390&start=25#p3537
  5. Catch Poliwag in Ecruteak City after fighting Morty (or possibly after Chuck) (credit: Exarion)
  6. Delay purchasing Ice Punch until second Mart trip, saving time on movement, freeing up money for more important uses, and allowing more PP flexibility in the middlegame (credit: Sinstar, Exarion for helping with this)
Other things found:
  • Spinner mechanics in Gen 2: http://pastebin.com/2QCjptA1 (credit: Mountebank)
  • 2 other spinners can be completely avoided: Dana on Route 38 (credit: Sinstar) & Doris in Sabrina's gym (credit: ryziken)
  • Bug in Special Defense badge boost - see here (credit: Dabomstew for help on this)
  • Various improvements in movement, menus, PP route, fight strats, money/item management, etc. (credit: Everyone)
  • Encounter immunity mechanics on route transitions - see here (credit: Mountebank for help on this). Semi-related, some notes on turnframes can be found here.
  • Trainer AI - see here.
Routes/Notes:

***EDIT (21 Oct 2015): Up-to-date guides can be found on speedrun.com here.
  • Lembox's UPDATED notes
    • Ed. Note: These contain the most detail and include fantastic visuals for learning hidden item locations and the tricky movement sections -- the best to use if you are new to [speedrunning] the game.
  • UnderscorePoY's notes
    • Ed. Note: Less detailed than Lembox's notes, but up to date with the recent developments; very good notes to follow after learning the basic route. UnderscorePoY has registered several sub-3:20 times with these notes.
  • entrpntr's notes (NOTE: New link)
    • Ed. Note: Not as beginner-friendly as it could be (yet) as it omits many fundamentals, but is up-to-date with current strats and loaded with useful information. You should read through this once you're familiar with the current route if you're going for a very competitive time (3:20 or lower).
–30–
[/i]


Hello PSR,

I routed Gold from scratch back in June and found several improvements to the standard route. I refined things off and on for a few months and achieved a route I think is pretty neat. I'd like to see the Gold time pushed down, but after a decent number of offstream attempts, I'm not sure I have any real desire to do serious attempts (routing is a lot more fun for me). So I'm leaving the notes I have here for others who might do so in my stead; I will be adding to them as I get stuff organized in the next week-ish.

I'll start off with by the the most significant improvement for now: embracing police brutality.

FUCK THE POLICE

Those with discerning eyes might have picked up that all the trainers on route 35 (Picnicker Kim, Camper Ivan, Bug Catcher Arnie) are actually optional (and Juggler Irwin is an avoidable spinner). This is only true in Gold/Silver, since the Squirtbottle quest changed in Crystal. Anyway, if the last Pokecenter you visited was Violet, you can deathwarp to Violet and bike straight to Sudowoodo. It may not seem like the logistics are there to pull it off in a speedrun, but fortunately it is elementary (just ambush a police officer and have him murder you), and there are reliable ways to stay alive without any Pokecenters.

In short, after picking up the Squirtbottle, you (1) pick up Kenya, (2) go Mart Shopping, (3) deposit all Pokemon except your cutter in the Day Care PC, (4) fight Officer Keith outside the daycare and white out, (5) withdraw Pokemon from PC in Violet and bike to Sudowoodo. Police officers only fight you at night, but you should be setting the clock somewhere between 5:25pm and 5:39pm anyway to hit all cutslave windows (the last being Oddish in Ilex).

Here are some quick comparison videos I made that show near-optimal results from Squirtbottle to Sudowoodo (with Mart Shopping and Kenya acquisition skipped because it's the same; the movement is still reflective of all differences between the two):

(1) My route: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/460 ... Police.mp4
(2) Standard route: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/460 ... Police.mp4

You have to deposit the egg / box heal once in the standard route, so I included it here for a more apples-to-apples comparison since this is where you always do it in my route. I checked the frames afterwards and the times were 1:47.85 vs 3:07.95; there's like a second more slop on my part in executing the standard route, but I grew weary of pressing keys. So as a baseline, it's around an 80 second advantage for that section.

If you come out of the Whitney fight with low HP, you can save a little time by sacrificing Croconaw instead (you can also let Kenya die if something silly happens like Clefairy metronome-roaring and then killing your cutter -- goddamn I love Metronome). As already mentioned, the deathwarp avoids having to pass Irwin, but also avoids possible Vulpix trolling (missing the damage range and getting Roared). Coming out with a full HP, full PP Toto heading towards Ecruteak is a nice plus as well. You also save a lot of time by virtue of skipping Pokecenters, but this could be adapted to the standard route as well, so I don't think it counts. On the flip side, you can get an unlucky grass encounter, and Growlithe can choose non-damaging moves, so you won't always reap the entirety of the timesave.

The best case scenario is going spinnerless and fighting Kaylee to get to L29 so you can Rare Candy and evolve to Feraligatr before Cianwood Gym (Ernest falls just short; gives 1182xp, but you need 1264xp). Kaylee is a longer fight compared to the best case methods to make up the 292xp you need on the standard route, but that only gives back 20-25 seconds or so. There are also situations where you hit a spinner that would have gotten you to L29 in the standard route, but you still fall short of the exp in my route; you have enough of a buffer that you'll still pull out ahead with an extra trainer fight. The best case scenario is too good to pass up if you are going for a really low time. You have 972 less experience (vs standard route) from Psychic Greg until evolving to Feraligatr, but this impacts very little; the majority of runs come out on par with the standard route in this section.

Surviving without Pokecenters

The last part of the equation is healing items. If anyone else had thought of the deathwarp strat before, they may have gotten discouraged because they couldn't get HP healing items to last through Morty. Some creativity with $$ fixes this for the most part, but it can still be a tad tight.

For reference, here is exactly what I was doing as a default with items: http://pastebin.com/xWHeK6qJ. I only get 4 Repels since you only go thru 4 grass tiles to get to Ecruteak, so I save $350 there. I get a second Full Heal in Azalea (behind the Slowpoke Well), which saves $600 compared to buying 1 in Goldenrod. From my testing/runs, buying 4 Potions in Azalea is enough to make the route safe enough in my eyes. I also always get the Route 29 Berry as it is often quite handy in a pinch. Picking up all 3 Super Potions is an obvious necessity. There are alterations you can do if you hit certain spinners, but this post is long enough already.

I only ran with 10+ atk DV Totos (14 atk @ L6) because it makes a difference on enough fights (at least when routing the game to its limits), and consequently I only ever bought 5 X Attacks. I do Kanto differently, and the Blue fight in particular ... I'll detail that elsewhere, but I'm basically paying $200 extra here (2 more X Specials, 1 less X Attack) compared to the standard route because it results in some worthwhile timesaves. There's a lot of flexibility depending on how you like your pokem speedruns, but this item route got me to a state I was very comfortable with running while sacrificing minimal time.

I invite questions and discussion in the meantime (about any aspect of this route) while I prepare notes on the route as a whole.
Last edited by entrpntr on Wed Oct 21, 2015 4:03 am, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Shenanagans » Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:48 pm

Ah really good find!

I was looking into something similar to this a while back and was debating doing something similar to this. I was going to enter the underground in goldenrod and battle the 2 trainers there (to make up the exp and to not have to fight them later) and grabbing the coin case. I was then going to buy abra and use it to teleport back to violet, and later in the run skip rock tunnel part 2.

This may actually be around the same amount of time as the death warp strategy, but might be more expensive... Possibly grab the charcoal in azalea to make up for the loss of money? (give an extra 900 to use in the mart as well).
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Sat Feb 07, 2015 10:14 pm

Interesting idea w/skipping Rock Tunnel part 2; I had toyed with some Abra ideas when trying to find the best way to warp back to Violet, but definitely didn't consider/realize there was another place it could be useful. That would be 30-35 seconds saved. Also saves a Super Repel, which should allow more flexibility in Olivine shopping (money is short there by skipping Route 35). I almost always bought 3 Super Potions there, but 4 would provide complete security.

That said, it's a ton of time wasted in Johto movement & text, though it does skip the death setup as well as Rock Tunnel. I may time it to see exactly how it comes out. $2000 is a ton of money to shell out though, so it would have to be significant. You do get $600 from fighting Donald early (fighting Teru can be deferred), but still.

If nothing else, it makes the prospect of catching Abra on Route 34 actually worth consideration; no setup apart from catching Abra and no money wasted. Seems like an insane thing to grind for (10% encounter rate * 26.2% catch rate = 2.62% chance of a sublime outcome; ~7.7% of catching one in first 3 encounters), but would definitely be the fastest method (2+ minutes saved vs standard?), unless I'm missing something. Certainly not an appealing strat, and I doubt it would make sense in RTA unless you want to invest thousands of hours, but a glitchless Gold TAS would use it.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Ryziken » Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:24 am

My Cyndaquil route uses the Abra from the Game Corner to achieve that very purpose, and 2 other useful warps which include the Rock Tunnel 2 skip. There is a lot of wasted movement as mentioned, and a lot of it is walking speed, but I believe I timed it a while back and found that the time it takes to get Abra is almost perfectly cancelled out by the time you save by NOT fighting the route 35 trainers (assuming no Irwin). The Rock Tunnel time save is a bonus.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Shenanagans » Sun Feb 08, 2015 4:49 am

yeah, catching abra is 100% the fastest way to run gold, but by doing underground early you can also make up a majority of the experience you need. iirc underground + sudowoodo makes it all up. an extra 2000 isn't impossible to get (we can get sweet scent/a couple extra items maybe)
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Tue Feb 10, 2015 1:04 am

I was thinking it was 120 coins for Abra, but that is in Blue. It's actually $4000 for 200 coins to buy Abra.

Didn't make videos, but it came out to ~1:38.5 for the movement/text in Johto (for walking out of basement, not Escape Roping), plus ~29.5 seconds to do the box heal setup. All things considered, skipping Rock Tunnel saves 33ish seconds. In sum, it looks like it would save somewhere between 10 and 15 seconds over the deathwarp. If there was more of an advantage, you could break things up into two Mart trips to deal with the severe lack of money, but as is, a second Mart trip will make things slower overall. So unless someone comes up with a improved method, I think the deathwarp is the best way to reliably skip Route 35.

Ryziken, did you have another warp besides these two (and would it apply to Totodile route?). I couldn't think of another one. ***EDIT: Ryziken clarified to me it was a Cyndaquil-specific warp, since he delays Chuck and thus is without Fly for a while.

Side notes for other options mentioned: Sweet Scent sells for only $500 and is ~14 seconds added in text/movement (including selling it). Donald is $600 / 422xp, Teru is $288 / 678xp, and fighting them early costs 15 seconds in extra movement before accounting for slower fights. The missing experience from the Kimono Girls up to Cianwood Gym is usually a very minor disadvantage and you lose 1100 experience for the late-game by fighting them early. But if you hit one of Daniel/Bill/Anthony/Benny, then fighting Donald and Teru will be faster than Kaylee or Ernest to make up the rest of the experience, and the added money would provide more flexibility with the item route.
Last edited by entrpntr on Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:39 am

Early Poliwag

While it loses time in a theoretically perfect run, getting Poliwag before Radio Tower will save time on average and also allow fewer runs to die while trying to catch Poliwag. If you wait till after, Feraligatr will be L45, and you will not be able to safely attack any Poliwag under L27 (can attack 46% of encounters). If you head toward Blackthorn after Jasmine & Pryce, Feraligatr will be L37, and you will be able to attack anything except L20 Poliwag (can attack 94% of encounters). Missed Poke Balls waste a lot of time, and this provides a much more reliable catch.

Poliwag has the same catch rate regardless of whether you use a Poke Ball, Great Ball, or Ultra Ball due to Gen II's catch rate formula. If you have 3 or 4 Poke Balls, acquiring any other balls is not a worthwhile use of time (even 2 Poke Balls is somewhat safe in the event you burned 3 balls getting a cutter).

My suggested decision table for Poli- encounters:

Code: Select all

- L20:    	 Poke Ball	
- L21-27:	  Ice Punch		
- L28-29:	  Bite		
- Poliwhirl:  Surf
*updated 27 Mar 2015*

Doing this requires an extra Fly (+9.5 seconds); you would fight Jasmine after the Mahogany Hideout to get to L36 before Pryce; this increases the chances Seel dies in 1 hit. You would bike to Blackthorn after catching Poli to gain a couple of seconds back later by Flying to the Blackthorn Pokecenter, rather than biking to the gym all the way from the Ice Path.

You fight Vance along the way; you still 1HKO both of his Pidgeottos, and his 1208xp provides a few levels that increase the chances of some damage ranges. Assuming you are running only 10+ atk, 12+ spc Totos, fought no spinners after evolving to Feraligatr (Kaylee/Benjamin/Ernest [2nd pass]/Douglas), and did not fight Donald/Teru early, the 1HKO increases (non-crit) are: L27 Seel (+23%), L30 Porygon (+13.5%), L24 Muk (+12.8%), L32 Arbok (+13.5%). Fighting Vance early also saves 2 PP for the section from Goldenrod Basement -> Heal House before Joyce, so you can use all neutral moves on Donald/Teru to save on "not very effective" text. (I'll include my full PP route in a later post.)

So on average, before accounting for the Poli encounter, you make up in the ballpark of 6-7 seconds, and can ignore acquiring more Balls. You also get faster Poliwag catches on average, and have a much lower chance of having the run end. I don't see a good reason not to do Poliwag early.
Last edited by entrpntr on Fri Mar 27, 2015 11:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:45 am

entrpntr wrote:So unless someone comes up with a improved method, I think the deathwarp is the best way to reliably skip Route 35.
Didn't find an improvement, but I did find an oversight that changes the picture. I had discounted fighting Donald/Teru because the experience wasn't necessary, but didn't consider another angle. To make up the 1264xp in a spinnerless run, I had assumed the fastest method was to fight Kaylee (1629xp), which adds over 50 seconds. But Donald + Teru + Tentacool will come out to 1325xp minimum, and adds at most 40 seconds over fighting Donald/Teru later. If you hit one of Daniel/Bill/Anthony/Benny/Dana/Ernest, you don't need to fight Tentacool. Having less XP for the late-game is more or less offset by having extra XP pre-Feraligatr.

*EDIT: Fighting Sudowoodo as suggested is faster by a few seconds since it's a forced battle, but at the cost of a lot of HP (health/healing items are at a premium in this route). If you have to use an extra potion to heal off the HP, Sudowoodo is actually slower. Also, you still have to pass Dana/Ernest, so if you end up hitting one of them, the Sudowoodo fight was for naught. Waiting for Tentacool is the more prudent choice.

So since the fastest method is to go to the basement anyway, that means 15 fewer seconds are wasted getting Abra vs the deathwarp. So up to 25-30 seconds of an advantage. A second Mart trip right before doing the Goldenrod Basement is 34 seconds out of the way. You only need to buy 1 X Attack, 1 X Special, 1 X Speed, 0 Guard Specs on the first Mart trip, which saves well more than the $4000 needed to get Abra. You can add a 5th Potion in Azalea, and still have $1856 leftover, just from selling TM31 and TM45. So you wouldn't have to go out of your way to get any items at all (Full Heals, Ether, etc), which should make Abra faster overall. Money is absolutely no issue later on at Olivine Mart or the second Goldenrod Mart trip.

Anyway, Abra/deathwarp are close enough to warrant some more precise retimings, and there may be faster methods yet. The main takeaway is that Donald/Teru should probably be fought early regardless, because they are FASTER (the extra money is nice too).
Last edited by entrpntr on Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Sat Feb 14, 2015 8:38 pm

Having been illuminated by the Donald/Teru timesave and the Abra possibilities, I've had to reevaluate a lot of the route I had in place. I think I'm set on most things, but will have to do some actual attempts to figure out exactly what to do with items and PP in some situations.

I looked at every possibility I could conceive with the deathwarp and with Abra and hammered out some more precise timings. The standard deathwarp setup (post-Squirtbottle -> Sudowoodo) is ~6.4 seconds faster than the Abra setup. The Rock Tunnel part 2 skip saves ~31.0 seconds vs a clean Rock Tunnel. The extra Mart trip costs 34.2 seconds. For the deathwarp, you can catch a Pidgey somewhere, which is actually ~2.3 seconds faster than Kenya (assuming you Scratch once then catch) since you have to remove the mail to deposit Kenya. My understanding is the HOF sequence does not count towards gametime (please correct me if I am wrong), so there is no penalty there for catching Abra. So before other considerations, the deathwarp is up to 12 seconds faster than Abra. The other considerations are critical, however.

First, the Abra setup has 0 things that can go wrong. The deathwarp can get an unlucky encounter in the two grass tiles, and some other time can be wasted if Keith doesn't Bite/Ember turn 1. If you elect to catch Pidgey, you are costing yourself HP and a Poke Ball at the very least; at worst, you can miss the catch, or kill Pidgey with a crit. Lastly, Rock Tunnel is usually not going to be 100% clean, so a 2nd pass can give back a second or two, or even more if you are bad.

More important, however, is items. Here is a revised item route with comparisons for Abra and the deathwarp: http://pastebin.com/C9K761UT. The two critical items are Full Heals and X Attacks. If you want to capitalize on the time advantage of the deathwarp, you are constrained to 2 X Attacks on Red (at least on my item route). Picking up the Ilex Full Heal sets you back ~6.9 seconds, enough to provide some safety and still preserve a small lead, but going with only 1 Full Heal is still begging for trouble. You are also constrained in Olivine shopping after buying 15 Super Repels and 3 Super Potions ($1,383), and have to make some tradeoffs with Awakenings/Paralyz Heals if you want to buy a 4th Super Potion (which basically ensures Chuck/Clair will be as safe as they can be). That's not a good deal with only 1 Full Heal. There is the possibility of buying only 1 X Attack in Goldenrod, and buying the rest in the Blackthorn Mart, but that sets you back ~14 seconds, i.e. slower than the Abra method.

With the Abra method, you have $1,856 left to play with. I think you would buy 3 Full Heals in Goldenrod (only costs ~2.1 seconds to make the purchase). Deferring the X Items / Guard Specs that aren't used until post-Radio Tower gives you plenty of money for Olivine Mart to buy 4 Super Potions, 14 Super Repels leaves you with over $1,200 to play with; enough to buy 5 combined Awakenings/Paralyz Heals (to go with the 3 Full Heals). Deferring the X Items means that you aren't constrained with X Attacks either, meaning you can have 3 X Attacks for Red without having to burn time/money. This makes 5-9 DV Totodiles more playable (i.e. all 12 atk Totodiles at L5); they are bound to miss a handful of damage ranges throughout runs, but don't cost additional time on top of that to maintain. Having more runs get off the ground allows a lot more selectivity in resetting for RNG, which easily nullifies the small time advantage the deathwarp had.

So if there aren't any oversights on my part, I believe Abra is the almost certainly the best way to skip Route 35, not death warping via the police. Although I don't like to admit it.
Last edited by entrpntr on Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:14 pm

Movement Improvements

I believe these are all the movement improvements I have found (at least the ones worth noting), compared to werster's 3:24 run(s). They save anywhere from frames to a second. Think I may have had the benefit here by not routing Crystal prior to Gold, as I'm pretty sure none of these apply to Crystal.

(1) Route 38/39: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/460 ... _38-39.mp4. Requires slightly more caution to avoid the optional trainers, but isn't really any harder to execute. I believe this saves 16 frames (assuming my measurements of 30 frames for ledge jumps, 8 per bike tile are correct). You can waste a couple tiles to time the Route 38 rotato a little better, but the repel wears off on a worse spot. I wouldn't blame anyone who eschewed this strat.

(2) Cianwood: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/460442/Cianwood.mp4. Saves about a quarter of a second vs werster's path. No drawbacks.

(3) Route 6, 8: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/460 ... te_6+8.mp4. Saves 8 tiles of biking (64 frames) on Route 6, and cutting from the menu while Super Repelling is a very minor time save, so it's around a second saved. You still use 2 Super Repels to the Power Plant. You could time the first Super Repel to end at a specific reference point in Rock Tunnel, if you were so inclined. No drawbacks.

There are other timing/menuing tricks for rotatos and spinners, but only one of those I think is worth pointing out. You can buffer Joyce without bringing up the menu by delaying your bike until you are diagonal from her: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/460 ... eJoyce.mp4. From there you can figure out whether to go up/left, or left/up to pass her. You lose 40 frames from the 5 tiles you walk instead of bike, instead of the 1.4-1.5 seconds it takes to open and close the menu, so it saves about 0.8 seconds. This can also be done in Crystal.

I'll add more if I can think of anything I missed.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by werster » Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:44 am

Yo this topic is sick. Really cool to see someone putting in this much work

38/39 movement I've at least known about, I'm just always scared I'll hit a trainer, because I did once in one of my very first runs and I'm always scared it'll happen again. Also I'm pretty sure ledge jumps are 32 frames, because they are the same speed when walking which is 16 per tile (and biking is 8)

Cianwood is nice, that's 16 frames faster I think.

Route 6/8 is def faster, but not by a second on my count. Cutting from menu whilst coupling a Repel is faster by 56 frames by my testing, which would still make this faster but only by 8 frames rather than a full second

I love Joyce
entrpntr wrote:My understanding is the HOF sequence does not count towards gametime (please correct me if I am wrong), so there is no penalty there for catching Abra.
HOF doesnt count to IGT, but having an extra Poke does set you back for every centre you take (which I think should be only Olivine, and the one at HoF because that is before IGT)

Abra w/ early Donaldn&Teru sounds like a good play. I really hate early Donald&Teru in Crystal because you reach 29 before the candy either way, and missing experience late game can be really bad for some damage ranges (golbats, muks, vileplume, not outspeeding Blues Alakazam etc) and all of those can compound time (confusion, poison, reflect, etc) but considering you need so much extra to get there in Gold esp with warping to Sudowoodo, its probably the better option.

I don't like early poli just because I don't like attacking Poliwag anyway (get hit by Hypnosis a few times/crit and then wait 2 minutes for another encounter and you'll understand why) but I can see why you'd consider it an option, losing a run to him is really gay. (I think I bought extra balls in Goldenrod/Olivine, can't remember exactly where in Gold, I think it depended on spinners hit)

Could you instead couple these 2 ideas, and go back to Violet after you beat Morty, Surf to get the second Rare Candy that's there, and catch a Poliwag while you Surf to it?

Also I saw you mentioned Red with 2 X Att somewhere because you didn't have enough money on the deathwarp route I think, and I did the calcs at some point of this (albeit on Crystal which is usually a level lower) and it was never worth it and pretty much suicide. One option which is totally gimmicky and I'm only mentioning it because I love the item and I wish it could be used seriously, is getting the Berserk Gene in Cerulean and equipping that before the fight, to save 2 X Atts for that fight (and a turn on setup, 2 turns if you get hit by a Thunder) - technically it's way safer as you have one less chance to get hit by Thunder, and if you do then that compounds even more. Mathematically it's probably about the same time I think (didn't actually calculate it, compound shit is gay) but obviously is better for the lower end and not the top end, and therefore not a good strat for actual runs. Just thought I'd mention that somewhere lol

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:14 pm

werster wrote:38/39 movement I've at least known about, I'm just always scared I'll hit a trainer, because I did once in one of my very first runs and I'm always scared it'll happen again. Also I'm pretty sure ledge jumps are 32 frames, because they are the same speed when walking which is 16 per tile (and biking is 8)
Glad you're double checking my work; 32 is probably right, it was noticeably faster, so I only did a half-assed job counting ledgejump frames. And yeah, given how wonky Gen 2 bike movement can be, I don't blame anyone for just taking the minor timeloss.
werster wrote:Route 6/8 is def faster, but not by a second on my count. Cutting from menu whilst coupling a Repel is faster by 56 frames by my testing, which would still make this faster but only by 8 frames rather than a full second
I didn't do a framecount here, because perfect execution is not trivial (is it?), and opted to time out a bunch of trials instead. However, it's certainly possible my menus were not as clean as I thought, and now that I think about it, I had been scrolling 2 spots from my Flyer to my Cutter, when I think it should only ever be 1.
werster wrote:HOF doesnt count to IGT, but having an extra Poke does set you back for every centre you take (which I think should be only Olivine, and the one at HoF because that is before IGT)
I have never healed in Olivine; I double deposit after warping to Violet, which refreshes Headbutt PP, and then of course skip its uses on Route 35. I used to get a second Ether, but since incorporating Donald/Teru, it appears you likely don't even need one; you can get Headbutt PP to last from Psychic Greg through the lighthouse and teach Strength after. You should be good on Surf PP since you can use Ice Punch on at least 4 of the 5 Gastlies of the first trainer in Morty's gym (once you hit L25, it's a 1HKO).
werster wrote:I don't like early poli just because I don't like attacking Poliwag anyway (get hit by Hypnosis a few times/crit and then wait 2 minutes for another encounter and you'll understand why) but I can see why you'd consider it an option, losing a run to him is really gay. (I think I bought extra balls in Goldenrod/Olivine, can't remember exactly where in Gold, I think it depended on spinners hit)
Guess I haven't crit or been put to sleep enough to really be turned off by it. Money is tight by skipping Route 35, so buying Great Balls in Olivine is not so easy to work in. That, coupled with the fact that the ball animation is so long (like 10+ seconds for each miss plus Poli getting another turn in) was why I originally thought it made the most sense. Getting 1208xp from Vance is a nice bonus before Radio Tower. I'm still learning towards it being the right play, but probably not as clear cut as I thought.
werster wrote:Could you instead couple these 2 ideas, and go back to Violet after you beat Morty, Surf to get the second Rare Candy that's there, and catch a Poliwag while you Surf to it?
I've thought about doing it there before and getting the candy, but was turned off by the timesink (20ish seconds). However, I had never considered doing it after Morty, and didn't consider the Donald/Teru angle. Warrants some looking into.
Also I saw you mentioned Red with 2 X Att somewhere because you didn't have enough money on the deathwarp route I think, and I did the calcs at some point of this (albeit on Crystal which is usually a level lower) and it was never worth it and pretty much suicide. One option which is totally gimmicky and I'm only mentioning it because I love the item and I wish it could be used seriously, is getting the Berserk Gene in Cerulean and equipping that before the fight, to save 2 X Atts for that fight (and a turn on setup, 2 turns if you get hit by a Thunder) - technically it's way safer as you have one less chance to get hit by Thunder, and if you do then that compounds even more. Mathematically it's probably about the same time I think (didn't actually calculate it, compound shit is gay) but obviously is better for the lower end and not the top end, and therefore not a good strat for actual runs. Just thought I'd mention that somewhere lol
I had only been running 10+ Atk DV, so 2 XAtk made everything but Espeon reliable. But anyway, a lot of my original thoughts are completely irrelevant with Abra and the 2nd Mart trip.

The Berserk Gene is something I had totally considered at various points (first when I was just starting routing and trying out all sorts of crazy shit, then again when I was trying to think of ways to save money), but unfortunately concluded was not practical. And yes, pls bring back the Berserk Gene, Game Freak.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Tue Feb 17, 2015 4:40 pm

werster wrote:Abra w/ early Donaldn&Teru sounds like a good play. I really hate early Donald&Teru in Crystal because you reach 29 before the candy either way, and missing experience late game can be really bad for some damage ranges (golbats, muks, vileplume, not outspeeding Blues Alakazam etc) and all of those can compound time (confusion, poison, reflect, etc) but considering you need so much extra to get there in Gold esp with warping to Sudowoodo, its probably the better option.
I was pretty against it too for the exact reasons you mentioned. If you go spinnerless in Gold post-Feraligatr, you also just miss L50 for Jynx, which makes Surf non-guaranteed (though very likely).

About Blue's Alakazam: one other thing I touched on somewhere was the Blue/Kanto strats. I actually fight Blue right after Blaine and before Misty/Sabrina. Blue's gym badge gives a boost to ground type moves, which makes Misty's Lapras a reliable 1HKO (guaranteed on 9+ atk) and Sabrina's Espeon a virtual certainty (97.4% with 5 atk DV, otherwise guaranteed).

I used 3 X Specials on Blue so that I could Surf + Ice Beam the Gyarados, minimizing the chances of Blue using a Full Restore (which is an unreasonably slow procedure). After 2 X Specials, you can 1HKO Pidgeot with Surf and Exeggutor with Ice Beam; Exeggutor will use Sunny Day if Solarbeam can't kill, so the third X Special may be used either on Pidgeot or Exeggutor. It doesn't matter if Alakazam uses Reflect, since you Surf him and Surf/Ice Beam everyone else.

I used to have an extremely tight Kanto PP route that only took the Center in Cerulean, but it looks like Max Elixir + Full Restore is the way to go, which adds flexibility. So if you can outspeed Alakazam and a good reason exists to defer Donald/Teru, maybe Blue can still be fought last. This would miss out on the $888 Donald/Teru give, but would save $700 in X Specials for the first Goldenrod Mart on my item route. I haven't looked much at these options but just throwing it out there.

*EDIT: Obviously deferring Donald/Teru is only possible with the deathwarp, lol. Wrote these posts too soon after waking up and wasn't thinking. Anyway, I think I misunderstood the point of the Rare Candy; I was thinking of it as a faster way to get to L30 than fighting Donald/Teru/Tentacool, while getting Poli in the process. If it's just a way to make up the experience for the lategame, I don't think it's worthwhile given the time it takes, since it makes a small difference on only a few Pokemon.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by werster » Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:33 am

Nah you were right, I was thinking use the second Rare Candy to get to level 30 early without fighting extra exp, but now that I think about it, if you're going for Abra you'd probably go down there for the Coin Case anyway. So it'd really only be a scenario to even consider if you ended up catching the Abra anyway.

I like Blue early (legit reason I thought this wasn't an option is that I thought Blue -had- to be 16th like in the remakes, lol) but I'm not sure how I feel about 3 X Specials. It's slower on a perfect fight (you can OHKO pidgeot/exeggutor on 1 X Spec, and 3hko Gyarados) and costs you an extra $700 on items. I hate Full Restore just as much as the next guy, but I'm pretty sure he can still use it after a 3x Surf anyway, so it doesn't even completely negate that at all.

For PP I got the Elixir in Rock Tunnel, I think that's faster than the Max Elixir on Cycling Road? (96 frames of movement vs 128 + shorter name) unless of course you need the extra Surf PP or whatever. I used it after Misty (before Blue/Sabrina) according to my old notes and it worked out, idk

Also I keep saying Ice Beam instead of Ice Punch and it's tripped me out a few times lol

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:45 am

werster wrote:I like Blue early (legit reason I thought this wasn't an option is that I thought Blue -had- to be 16th like in the remakes, lol) but I'm not sure how I feel about 3 X Specials. It's slower on a perfect fight (you can OHKO pidgeot/exeggutor on 1 X Spec, and 3hko Gyarados) and costs you an extra $700 on items. I hate Full Restore just as much as the next guy, but I'm pretty sure he can still use it after a 3x Surf anyway, so it doesn't even completely negate that at all.

For PP I got the Elixir in Rock Tunnel, I think that's faster than the Max Elixir on Cycling Road? (96 frames of movement vs 128 + shorter name) unless of course you need the extra Surf PP or whatever. I used it after Misty (before Blue/Sabrina) according to my old notes and it worked out, idk
I'm definitely open to re-evaluating the fight; like I said I used to ONLY use the Cerulean Center, so I planned to end the Blue fight with exactly 0 or 1 PP. I just recently retimed the Max Elixir + Full Restore and found it actually came out faster than the Center. I hadn't even checked to see if Elixir would be sufficient, but sounds like it would.

The $700 is irrelevant with the Abra strat, since you only need to buy 1 XAtk, 1 XSpd, 1 XSpc in the first Mart trip to last until Radio Tower. I was merging the two routes in my mind earlier so I confused myself as well about the money implications. Here's what I posted earlier with items that I'm doing early on with items for Abra: http://pastebin.com/C9K761UT.

Anyway, I wanted to get something on video, since there are a lot more things you can pick up there than from a wall of text. So here you go, if you can get the damn thing to play (I can't): http://www.twitch.tv/entrpntr/c/6141873. First actual attempts I've done since November + no notes up until Rocket Hideout + generally being bad is a solid combo to produce lots of slop and dumb decisions. But hey, ahead of WR pace despite all the dumb shit that happens, until my early Poliwag strat hits a snag named Poliwhirl. No spinners certainly helped, but still, the route should speak for itself and the video should provide a better starting point since it covers the critical section of the run.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:33 am

Since I haven't gone too much into how the HP situation plays out, and now there's a reference run, I'll add some detail:

Right now, I'm sticking with running 12/13 atk, 11 SpDef, and either 12 defense* or 10 speed (or both of course), which comes out to just over 1/7 Totodiles. With 12 defense @ L5, I'd like to leave Violet with a Potion and/or a Berry for the Whitney fight. I have been using the extra Berry to get to 15+ HP if need be without taking a Center before Falkner's Gym. I equip a Berry while pause buffering at Arnie if I don't go Berryless, which can create a weird situation if Bellsprout shows up on Route 31 and you don't have Sentret, as it does here. Bellsprout crit and Spearow crit screw me here so I leave Violet with no healing items.

Usually, I end up in Azalea somewhere around 10 HP, and I'm buying 5 Potions in the Mart; I use 1 before the Rattata fight in the Slowpoke Well and usually end up using 1 more, which ends up being the case here. That gives 3 Potions for discretionary use in Bugsy, Whitney, and Morty's gym. With a Super Potion after Bugsy, Rival 2, and Jolteon, and the double deposit after Whitney, this should be plenty of healing items even if things go poorly. Here, things play out strangely when I miss the 2HKO on Scyther and didn't know offhand whether Quick Attack or Fury Cutter killed. Since I was short a Potion, I thought the best play was to risk entering Rival 2 fight a few HP short of full, and it works out.

Whitney's gym goes standard (for a winning fight), and I enter Ecruteak with the typical "worst case scenario" of 1 Super Potion and 1 Potion. (This isn't a dire situation, but I wanted to try to keep the run going; however, short term memory loss strikes and i completely forget to buy 1 less Full Heal so I can afford a couple more Potions. So 1 Super Potion and 1 Potion it is.)

I have the speed to outspeed Espeon at L24, so I go Jolteon first in the Kimono Theater. A turn 1 Thundershock crit blows everything to hell, so I end up having to get the hidden Hyper Potion to survive Morty's gym. I only recall having to get that Hyper Potion one other time, and that was when buying 1 less Potion, so this type of situation shouldn't play out very frequently.

You may not agree with what I'm doing in certain places (hell, I keep changing things up myself), but hopefully it helps give an idea of the typical way things unfolds and helps you figure out how you'd prefer to manage your health. One thing that stands out as something that could change is taking the Violet Center before Falkner's Gym if it means saving a Berry for Whitney, but it still feels right to me to skip the Center.

*I used to not even run 11 defense because it means Spearow deals more damage and Whitney kills you a very high percent of the time (the difference between 40 defense [0-4 DV] and 41 defense [5+ DV] for Rollout is ~7/15/29 vs ~6/12/25). Today I tested Exarion's strat of keeping Fury Cutter for Whitney, and it appears to make Whitney much more playable with low defense; not sold on it for good defense however. I'm healing in the center before Violet Gym with 11 defense Totos because Spearow deals more damage, and you pretty much always end up using both Potions in the gym. After that, it has tended to even out so far, but I still haven't done too many runs with the 11 defense Totos.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:52 pm

Revisiting Blue, it was really a combo of things that led me to the 3 X Spc strat. At L60 with 1 X Atk + 1 X Spc, Exeggutor is not a guaranteed kill with Ice Punch, Alakazam is not a guaranteed kill with Surf, plus Strength/Earthquake will not kill if it uses Reflect (which it is just under 50% to use). So you save super-effective text on Pidgeot, avoid the possibility of Alakazam getting an extra turn, and are reasonably likely to save on move animations as well, before considering the Full Restore.

I never worked my way completely through Blue's AI, but from testing it certainly seemed like the less damage you dealt to Gyarados, the less likely he was to Full Restore (and obviously would not Full Restore with > 50% HP). Using Ice Punch x3 also added the risk of freezing, which triggers the Full Restore.

Spending the 1 extra turn of setup wastes a couple seconds at most, so I think I am still happy with the approach. The only thing that can really go wrong is the Full Restore, but that happens appreciably less often. (There is also a distant chance that Surf + Ice Punch does not get the kill.) If it did cost more money for the first Goldenrod Mart trip, it might very well be a different story.

Here is a comparison for doing early Blue (L60) with 3 xspc, and with 1 xspc + 1 xatk, to help with drawing your own conclusions:

Pidgeotto (2-3 X Spc): Surf is OHKO
Pidgeotto (1 X Spc): Ice Punch is OHKO

Exeggutor (3 X Spc): Ice Punch is OHKO
Exeggutor (1 X Spc), Ice Punch:

Code: Select all

Spc DV  OHKO (non-crit)
12:     48.72%
13:     53.85%
14,15:  64.10%
Alakazam (3 X Spc): Surf is OHKO
Alakazam (1 X Spc), Surf:

Code: Select all

Spc DV  OHKO (non-crit)
12,13:  64.10%
14:     71.79%
15:     76.92%
Gyarados (3 X Spc), 12-13 Spc DV

Code: Select all

Surf        87-103 44.62-52.82%  (crit: 174-205 89.23-105.13%)
    (Crit one shot prob.: 33.33%)
Ice Punch  103-122 52.82-62.56%  (crit: 206-243 105.64-124.62%)
Gyarados (3 X Spc), 14 Spc DV

Code: Select all

Surf        89-105 45.64-53.85%  (crit: 177-208 90.77-106.67%)
    (Crit one shot prob.: 41.03%)
Ice Punch  104-123 53.33-63.08%  (crit: 208-245 106.67-125.64%)
Gyarados (3 X Spc), 15 Spc DV

Code: Select all

Surf        89-105 45.64-53.85%  (crit: 178-210 91.28-107.69%)
    (Crit one shot prob.: 48.72%)
Ice Punch  107-126 54.87-64.62%  (crit: 211-249 108.21-127.69%)
Gyarados (1 X Spc), Ice Punch

Code: Select all

Spc DV
12       62-74 31.79-37.95%  (crit: 124-146 63.59-74.87%)
13-15    63-75 32.31-38.46%  (crit: 125-148 64.10-75.90%)
Gyarados (1 X Atk), Strength [No Reflect]:

Code: Select all

Atk DV
 5     97-115 49.74-58.97%  (crit: 194-229 99.49-117.44%)
    (Crit one shot prob.: 97.44%)
10    102-121 52.31-62.05%  (crit: 204-240 104.62-123.08%)
15    105-124 53.85-63.59%  (crit: 210-247 107.69-126.67%)

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by werster » Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:24 am

Surf not always killing Zam off 1 X Spec has sold me, I thought it always killed, and that'd be a as a result of not having the Water badge boost from Misty early. Also I didn't notice you do 2 trips with Abra, so yeah the 700 isn't relevant at all in that case

Fury Cutter on Whitney is only a strat I use with low defense (or if I run out of healing items or something) - basically I calculate if I'll survive 4 doubleslaps and 3 Rollouts, if yes go Rage, if no go Fury Cutter

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by werster » Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:57 am

Oh, I should also add the X Spec thing in Crystal, should apply to Gold as well. X Spec on Goldenrod underground Rival is a definite play if you've got the money for it. With Bitter Berry you can use it on Golbat and Surf (IP is a range without), then OHKO Meganium (usually use it on Meganium, which is about the same time) IP Haunter to get the Surf PP back, and then OHKO Sneasel with Surf too (which is usually a 1/39 damage range iirc)

If you have another X Spec you can also use one on Victory Road Rival (which you should, given you shop twice, though I'm not sure at what point you do that during Goldenrod revisit) - Again you OHKO Meganium, but this time you can use it on Sneasel. I'm not sure what the ranges are like in Gold, I think you're a higher level there than in Crystal, but in Crystal Sneasel and Golbat are both ranges you avoid by using the X Spec, since you can just use it on Sneasel, and you avoid any chance of taking serious damage or getting poisoned from Meganium and potentially save a Full Restore (and can always Strength Kadabra since no Reflect)

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Keizaron » Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:14 am

Not really adding anything productive towards all the strat talk, but this is definitely making Gold look a lot more runnable than it has in the past.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Lembox » Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:04 pm

Really interesting discussion and great ideas entrpntr and Ryziken.
Like I did in my run it should be worth considering to use Return since we have to do a second shopping tour in Goldenrod and after your happiness value is maxed out after E4, you have a move with about 102 base power. If you also get the Pink Bow from Mary after doing the Rocket segment in Radio Tower it's a neat combination that helps a lot in Kanto (e.g. guaranteed ranges, less super-effective text, etc.).

I've rewritten my notes if somebody wants to look through the route I use (and find more optimizations :D ): https://www.dropbox.com/s/ywkgtcjgblg30 ... n.pdf?dl=0

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by Sinstar » Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:10 pm

I just had an interesting idea that may or may not be useful as a small time/money saver in either gold or crystal, although I'm not familiar enough with the route to be sure. Since money is so tight you can potentially save $700 by picking up the X accuracy in team rocket HQ and having this for Karen instead of a guard spec, it's widely known that x acuraccy makes all moves 100% accurate in gen 1 but this effect also actually applies in gen 2, with a clause for OHKO moves. This means you potentially save a turn of setup on Karen if she doesn't sand attack, and could even save it for Sabrina or something in that case. Just a little thought :).
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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by werster » Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:17 pm

Went through Crystal last night, and I can say really without any doubt that Return + Pink Bow is the way to go. Especially in Gold, since you're doing 2 shopping trips anyway, it's better in Crystal anyway. There are small things in your route/notes that can be better, I'll post later when I can list them all, busy atm

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:47 pm

Congrats on the 3:24 Lembox. I had thought of Return with the second Mart trip but never gave it a proper test, as Earthquake is useful for a couple things (Hitmontop, guaranteed 1-hit on Electabuzz). But mostly, I was lazy and didn't want to have to figure out what Toto's happiness was for damage calculations. Any idea if getting a haircut while in the Underground would be useful for damage ranges, or if it would be enough to get Return on the first trip? (Guessing not for the latter based on Glitched Gold runs I've seen.) ***EDIT: In Gold testing, getting the "delighted" text from the haircut (10%) got me enough for the Return TM, but getting it early seems extremely limited in value, so almost certainly not worth the $300.

Couple notes to add on based on what I picked up from the run/notes: I teach Fury Cutter over Leer, Headbutt over either Fury Cutter or Rage (whichever I won't be using on Whitney), then Bite over the other move; keeping Scratch is a good way to conserve Headbutt PP through the Lighthouse, especially for high attack Totodiles. Can be used on the Drowsee and Kimono Girls while avoiding the super effective text of Bite/Water Gun.

I think buying the extra X Items on the first trip is a suboptimal use of money. Would rather spend it on Potions in Azalea and buying Full Heals instead of picking any up (it's like +8 seconds for Azalea Full Heal, +7 for Ilex). The X Items end up only a couple of spots lower in your inventory on the second Mart trip, so I don't think there's much reason to save their spot.

I do Erika/Janine before Nugget Bridge, which I found ran into fewer damage ranges and super-effective text in Kanto. I don't know what the timings are for Return vs Earthquake, so this may be immaterial, but thought I'd point it out.

My spinner strats pre-Feraligatr with Donald/Teru now a thing: only accept 0 or 1 of Daniel/Bill/Anthony/Benny/Dana/Ernest. Fight Tentacool if you go spinnerless. Of course I only recommend this if you are going for a highly optimized time, but I think it is completely reasonable to be this picky, since a second spinner is just a dead time loss with no real upside and it's not that unlikely to pull off.

Interested to see how this all turns out, especially the Return stuff.

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Re: Major Time Save in Gold (and other Route Notes)

Post by entrpntr » Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:07 am

This probably deserves its own thread, but since this one is pretty active, I'll leave it here as well.

Mountebank looked into the disassembly, and figured out precisely how Gen 2 spinner mechanics work: http://pastebin.com/2QCjptA1. Essentially, based on their current direction, spinners are 50% likely to switch to a certain direction (Right<->Down, Left<->Up), and by knowing this, you can avoid passing spinners when they are likely to spin your way next. This has obvious, considerable implications, especially for Crystal, where there are more spinners to deal with.

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