Revisiting Timing Methods for Pokemon Speedruns (IGT vs RTA)

Discuss policy guidelines for the community and whether something needs to be changed or not.
Gymfreak739
Schoolkid
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:05 pm

Re: Revisiting Timing Methods for Pokemon Speedruns (IGT vs RTA)

Post by Gymfreak739 » Sun Jul 24, 2016 4:25 am

Personally, I don't really care whether we decide to switch to RTA or not, but I believe that it is best for the community to switch to RTA.

1) Not all in-game timers are 100% accurate. I'm definitely not an expert on this, but we can all agree that the in-game timer for some games are not 100% accurate. If we are not using an accurate timer, than the times we get have no value.

2) Switching to RTA allows for S+Q It can be very discouraging for new runners to have to get a single segment time to be allowed to submit to the leaderboards. Newcomers will most likely not get a single segment time for a while, and it is not fun for some people to run the game and feel like they have to get an SS time. Yes, I don't exactly agree that it matters to have your time on the leaderboards, but using RTA will encourage more people to get into pokemon speedrunning, and as a result, our community will grow. Also, S+Q allows for more RNG manipulation in gen 3 and 4 games, such as Abra manip.

The harder discussion will be when time starts and stops for each game, but that's a topic for another day.

User avatar
RXFADEZ
Pokémon Trainer
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:32 pm
Contact:

Re: Revisiting Timing Methods for Pokemon Speedruns (IGT vs RTA)

Post by RXFADEZ » Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:22 am

If we agreed to universal timing from reset, we would have to add the fastest possible "RTA start to the game that wasn't counted by IGT" to all runs from reset point. Same applies if we start from new game and IGT starts later. However, in cases like Emerald and FR/LG (where we currently start from "OK" for manip) I don't think there's too much of a discrepancy that would matter for the New Game start. Did anyone really waste more than a second naming their character? Did anyone casually press through to that menu as opposed to mashing?

A universal timing method does seem beneficial - if we grandfathered in old runs so they are not disadvantaged.

I'm more of a fan of from "New Game" than from reset for many reasons (if we do go universal). One reason is that it doesn't hinder runs in games such as Sapphire where waiting on the start screen is beneficial and either future/past runs will be disadvantaged by a "reset" change. Secondly, people who have a save with their options ready (Fast, Set, etc) will have an advantage over those who do not - would this effectively create a "New Game+" benefit (although not to a great extent) to people who already have save files (not including Gen1 ofc). It also complies with current Glitched timings.

I feel we should have a poll to determine what the COMMUNITY wants. That's what's important in the end. If the community wants to start at game control, we start then. If the community wants reset, we start then. If the community wants new game, we start then, etc.

(I think it's almost guaranteed for the switch to RTA at this point because of the sheer majority in favour of RTA)

EDIT: People keep saying "In-Game timers are accurate in what they time" - but that is not the argument being made. We're saying In-Game Timers are inaccurate in showing who's actually completing the game faster

entrpntr
Pokémon Trainer
Posts: 141
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:22 pm

Re: Revisiting Timing Methods for Pokemon Speedruns (IGT vs RTA)

Post by entrpntr » Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:26 am

Besides the stated reasons, the main reason I prefer IGT is because I think it is more universal, and that I don't believe our leaderboards are just for the benefit of speedrunners. I remember playing Pokémon Blue when I was younger and trying to get the lowest time possible. I remember the first time I got sub-4 hours on the in-game timer (3:54, woohoo). I don't remember my real time, because I wasn't using a stopwatch. Same thing applies for every other game I played that had any timing mechanic built in. Anyone who played these games when they were younger will have a better frame of reference with IGT, which is why I think the game's model of time matters, and should be the default unless there is a compelling reason to switch.

This sentiment isn't uncommon, and IGT has been in use in many other games for over a decade, and the [vast] majority don't align with real time. That's why the arguments that are made from the vantage point of "IGT shouldn't be used for speedruns if it doesn't accurately measure real time" are so transparently insular. But I hadn't been beating the IGT drum, and I'm not going to any further, because it's obvious those arguments aren't being bought by most of the community.

My impression is that the primary community arguments for switching to RTA have been accuracy-related, and secondary arguments have been for seconds granularity and S&Q. If there's been any argument against RTA (rather than pro-IGT), it's that it adds a bunch of administrative effort, and you [probably] need to manually count frames to ensure real time actually is accurate. Weighing those considerations, I'll make it quick and say I'm still quite skeptical about adding all the effort to switch RB & GSC to RTA, where the frames that aren't counted are basically inconsequential, and runners can accurately reason about IGT during runs. Switching in Yellow because Pikachu cries create a noticeable (albeit minor) inaccuracy is silly to me, but I don't have strong feelings either way at this point. Gen 3 IGT looks legitimately difficult to reason about during runs, and I definitely won't argue against a switch to real time for those games (thanks Game Freak for the sick troll-job of adding seconds granularity solely for those games). I haven't heard any cases of IGT inaccuracies in Gen 4-6, but I am very unfamiliar with those games (other than MKDasher stating Gen 4 is accurate).

Beyond that, I think I've run out of points I want to make, and I'm not as active a runner as others, so I'll probably switch to lurker mode for the rest of the discussion.

User avatar
RXFADEZ
Pokémon Trainer
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:32 pm
Contact:

Re: Revisiting Timing Methods for Pokemon Speedruns (IGT vs RTA)

Post by RXFADEZ » Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:50 am

entrpntr wrote:That's why the arguments that are made from the vantage point of "IGT shouldn't be used for speedruns if it doesn't accurately measure real time" are so transparently insular.
I feel this is somewhat of a strawman. The argument is not because it does not accurately measure real time, but because it does not measure how fast you were actually going and rather how well you manipulated the In-Game clock.

Anyway I don't think a cultural justification for IGT is valid. The vast majority of people originally playing the game will take their time and likely not remember their HoF times (just checked my first Ruby HoF to be 109hrs 25mins and 33 seconds). But people won't act like "This game took me 100 IGT hrs to complete and you can do it in 3 IGT hrs", they'll see "Oh you can complete the game that took me 100hrs in 3hrs?" because there isn't so much of a concept of IGT/RTA difference outside the speedrunning community.

MKDasher
Schoolkid
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri May 02, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: Revisiting Timing Methods for Pokemon Speedruns (IGT vs RTA)

Post by MKDasher » Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:52 am

RXFADEZ wrote:I'm more of a fan of from "New Game" than from reset for many reasons (if we do go universal)
You can't go universal with that since gen 4 never presses "new game".
RXFADEZ wrote:The argument is not because it does not accurately measure real time, but because it does not measure how fast you were actually going and rather how well you manipulated the In-Game clock.
I think we're not talking properly about things tbh, and I agree with entr and werster with this. Just because IGT times stuff differently doesn't mean you can manipulate it, or that it's inaccurate. The only reasonable argument I see about this is Exarion's saying it's a problem trying to test stuff RTA and not knowing exactly how much a would it save IGT wise, but that doesn't have anything to do with IGT manipulation.
Last edited by MKDasher on Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:02 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
RXFADEZ
Pokémon Trainer
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:32 pm
Contact:

Re: Revisiting Timing Methods for Pokemon Speedruns (IGT vs RTA)

Post by RXFADEZ » Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:10 am

MKDasher wrote:You can't go universal with that since gen 4 never presses "new game".
That would be the "Press Start" menu then. I'm talking about the button press before you enter the game's intro.
MKDasher wrote:I think we're not talking properly about things tbh, and I agree with entr and werster with this. Just because IGT times stuff differently doesn't mean you can manipulate it, or that it's inaccurate. The only reasonable argument I see about this is Exarion's saying it's a problem trying to test stuff RTA and not knowing exactly how much a would it save IGT wise, but that doesn't have anything to do with IGT manipulation.
Sorry if I am perhaps using inaccurate terminology. My point is that the point of speedrunning is to complete the game as fast as possible. IGT is a timing method where some things (e.g. bag manip) are not punished as severely as they should be. This means that - theoretically - people that use safety strats and finish the game a minute SLOWER could have the same time as somebody who use fast strats and finished a minute faster.

That really doesn't sound clear reading it back - but I hope my point gets across.

User avatar
Amoeba
Cooltrainer
Posts: 280
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:26 am
Contact:

Re: Revisiting Timing Methods for Pokemon Speedruns (IGT vs RTA)

Post by Amoeba » Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:16 am

Personally don't think the "IGT is sometimes inaccurate in some games" point is as important as people are making it out to be here. Switching to RTA might help that issue, as it removes the inconsistency and potential abuse of IGT (though really this could only exist in gen3, on a very minor level) but I personally think the other benefits are far more important: Introducing S&Q allowing for new rng manips in games where that is prevalent, and the untying of full-minute ties where the IGT doesn't count to seconds. Just hope people don't get tunnel-vision trying to pinpoint the exact nature of IGT and its abuse.
~

analpikachu
Preschooler
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 5:34 pm

Re: Revisiting Timing Methods for Pokemon Speedruns (IGT vs RTA)

Post by analpikachu » Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:56 pm

By rules I meant when should we start the timer? when should we stop it? (obviously for future runs), or can we use something different than live split for the timing? I wanted to know if there is a list of rules for RTA, just like the ones currently displayed in speedrun.com for IGT

Keizaron
Site Admin
Posts: 273
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:13 pm
Location: Spokane, WA
Contact:

Re: Revisiting Timing Methods for Pokemon Speedruns (IGT vs RTA)

Post by Keizaron » Sun Jul 24, 2016 7:02 pm

analpikachu wrote:By rules I meant when should we start the timer? when should we stop it? (obviously for future runs), or can we use something different than live split for the timing? I wanted to know if there is a list of rules for RTA, just like the ones currently displayed in speedrun.com for IGT
These have not been determined yet. From the looks of things both in the Discord and in this thread though, it's pretty apparent that most people are for RTA, and those for IGT are in a vocal minority (I mean that with absolutely zero venom, to you IGTers), so this is something that can be looked at in the near future. As mentioned before, no changes would take place until after the marathon, so whether we discuss it between now and then or wait until after the marathon, there are no clear cut rules yet.

You can always use something different than livesplit for timing, though. There's no rule as of now saying you even need to use a timer (specific or otherwise), it just helps the processing and fact-checking of the run. If/when RTA comes about, though, a timer with the game would certainly be very nice.

User avatar
Dabomstew
Site Admin
Posts: 161
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:26 am

Re: Revisiting Timing Methods for Pokemon Speedruns (IGT vs RTA)

Post by Dabomstew » Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:24 am

The discussion in here has somewhat slowed, and most points about the RTA/IGT comparison have been made already. Between the community poll posted on Discord and the arguments made in this topic, it seems a fairly significant majority are in favor of an RTA switch for all generations (approximately two-thirds of respondents voted as such in the poll).

The fallout of this is that our current plans are to move forward assuming that such a switch will be made. This means that the next step will be to carefully select how exactly each generation/category is timed. While a lot of excellent points have already been made regarding potential solutions for this, there has not really been any kind of consensus reached yet.

We will open up another topic in the very near future, gather some more responses and attempt to come to a conclusion regarding timing rules before the PSR Marathon, with a view towards actually beginning the process of retiming runs and adjusting the leaderboards soon after the marathon is over.

User avatar
Chromatrope
Preschooler
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:14 pm

Re: Revisiting Timing Methods for Pokemon Speedruns (IGT vs RTA)

Post by Chromatrope » Fri Jul 29, 2016 6:47 pm

After the ideas have sat in my head for a while, one of the only real potential downsides (imo) of RTA popped up. I'm not sure about the current ruling on this:

Piss breaks.

Yes I am serious. It's no secret some have weak bladders, or maybe you don't feel like going every half hour of resetting just so you can be sure you'll make it to the piss break cutscene two and a half hours in. I don't know what the rulings are at the moment, but with IGT, I am assuming closing your device to go take a piss is allowed if not excessive. If with RTA the possibility of doing this for longer runs would disappear, that would be a small shame, so I would suggest adding a very simple ruling to discourage breaks but keep them accessible. Something like 'When taking a break, put your device to sleep and stop the timer no less than a whole second after. Resume the timer at least a whole second before waking up the device again.'

I realize this is very nitpicky and worrying about small stuff but I think it's worth noting, especially for 4 hour runs, as for some those quite literally stretch the capabilities of their bladders.
Perpetually lazy and uninspiring.

Keizaron
Site Admin
Posts: 273
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:13 pm
Location: Spokane, WA
Contact:

Re: Revisiting Timing Methods for Pokemon Speedruns (IGT vs RTA)

Post by Keizaron » Fri Jul 29, 2016 9:52 pm

We have not allowed pausing the timer, nor will we allow it in the future. If you need to relieve yourself, either blitz during a cutscene or take the time loss.

User avatar
Chromatrope
Preschooler
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:14 pm

Re: Revisiting Timing Methods for Pokemon Speedruns (IGT vs RTA)

Post by Chromatrope » Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:04 pm

Ok, good, that clears that up. I am now out of things to nitpick.
Perpetually lazy and uninspiring.

Post Reply

Return to “Policy Changes”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests