Revisiting oobLG

Discuss policy guidelines for the community and whether something needs to be changed or not.
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Shenanagans
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Revisiting oobLG

Post by Shenanagans » Wed Mar 09, 2016 4:54 am

After speaking with other runners, trying the glitch for myself, watching runs using the glitch, and quantifying the number of pokemon that are obtained via "____LG" methods I believe it is finally time to discuss the legality of the LG variant glitches and their use in the Catch 'em All speedruns.

I would like to conduct the discussion in this thread similarly to how we treated the Instant Text discussion. All posts should be very serious. I don't believe the Catch 'em All community is large enough to warrant a vote, but after the discussion we may decide to hold one.
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Re: Revisiting oobLG

Post by Keizaron » Wed Mar 09, 2016 5:11 am

Catch 'Em All at its core is almost always going to look arbitrary just because it suffers the gen 1 curse. I hate to (continue to) sound like an old boy who craps all over every new thing but both oobLG and LWA extremely trivialize the category. Speaking from a viewing perspective, it's really difficult to watch and I don't think I've seen a full 151 run every since oobLG was routed because it simply didn't catch my attention. The level of variance that's now absent from runs takes away from the entertainment factor.

I can't necessarily speak as a runner in this case, since the last route I used was the pre-oobLG route.

I half-jokingly said it in Discord but I feel it's worth mentioning in this thread. I'd honestly consider having the current state of the category (plus LWA, why not) be one category and something that lacks LG methods as another. I don't know if I necessarily support that as an OFFICIAL stance (IE: src leaderboards) but at least that most cleanly addresses the issue.

CEA will always be arbitrary in nature regardless.

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Re: Revisiting oobLG

Post by Shenanagans » Wed Mar 09, 2016 5:24 am

Now for my opinion.

I began speedruns of this category in October 2013. I fell in love with a category that was so diverse, each run was different, and you were forced to do major rerouting on the fly. When DSUM was discovered the route became a pleasure to run. There was so much improvisation involved in the route that every run felt fresh. A few weeks after I started running this game we discovered item underflow and the category was completely destroyed. we could teleport, walk through walls on command, and even get all kinds of crazy items! There was so much opportunity for routing and optimization. As time went by we found more and more glitches to use in the route. That is until we found Cooltrainer, which for a few months completely killed off the category. This luck based glitch absolutely made running the game hell. Every run required 20-30 uses of the glitch, and a single fail typically cost around 2 minutes. Runs were unbearable, and eventually the community died.

After a few months Lucky discovered LGFly. This glitch allowed us to take the Pokemon we were forced to catch in Cooltrainer and catch them in a way that was 100% consistent. the community was buzzing with activity, and runs quickly dropped below 2 hours. We could tell the glitch was a bit polarizing, but it beats cooltrainer right? There was still a lot of on the fly routing, and the category wasn't 100% based around one glitch.

This is no longer the case in the current route. The current route involves rushing underflow. Catching the Pokemon that you cannot catch in oobLG/LGFly, then finally Catching 40+ Pokemon using LGFly and oobLG (somewhere between 80-101 Pokemon if you count their evolutions). The category has become basically a "NSC+" where you simply play NSC but then add 45 minutes of menus and 20 minutes to set up those menus.

This is largely due to the fact that oobLG and LGFly together are polarizing glitches. They allow us to catch Pokemon far faster than any other method, obsoleting every other possible method of catching Pokemon (outside a select few). We ban LWA because it allowed us to catch Pokemon far too quickly, but by removing that we let oobLG run rampant. LWA itself is really just an optimized version of oobLG so why should we only ban one of them?

oobLG is also PAINFUL to watch (seriously watch the entirety of the oobLG segment without tabbing out). The old route would also farm pokemon, but at least in those routes every Pokemon required a different method to catch. with these farming glitches you simply. Scroll down and toss Tms. Scroll up and do a few repetitive inputs, and catch a Pokemon. Do this over and over until you catch everything!

The fact that we ban LWA for being "too fast" but allow oobLG because it is "sort of fast, but not worth catching all 151 pokemon with" seems silly to me.

For this reason I would like to call for one of 4 possible alternatives:

1) Allow LWA. There really isn't a reason to ban this if we're allowing oobLG
2) Ban oobLG and allow LGFly. Basically go back to the SGDQ2015 time route.
3) Ban both oobLG and LGFly. Back to the Cooltrainer hell route from early 2015
4) Ban oobLG, LGFly, and Cooltrainer. Forces 100% consistent catch methods at the cost of speed.

Of these four I would prefer the 2nd or 4th options.

Allowing LGFly would let us keep the spirit of the current route, but it would keep several glitches completely obsolete. We would likely still farm around 30 pokemon with LGFly, but it would keep runs below two hours.

The 4th option is the most interesting in my opinion. The only reason that we (me, horou and eddaket) allowed LGFly in the first place was that Cooltrainer was far too severe of a run killer, and losing 3-4 minutes to LG each cooltrainer was just too slow. With the added rule to ban Cooltrainer we could revert to a route that keeps up the spirit of what Catch 'em All used to be.

In my opinion LG based farming glitches are beginning to become polarizing. We already ban farming glitches (LWA) because they are too fast. But how fast is too fast? What if oobLG took 35 seconds a Pokemon? 25 seconds? where do we draw the line with these farming glitches? Something needs to be done before we let Lucky destroy the category again.

I think that adding two categories would probably be the best way to handle this situation. I feel like a "Catch 'em All anything goes" and a "Catch 'em All Legacy" would be the two best options. Anything goes means Anything, Legacy is up to us to decide. We can then ban stuff into the "Anything goes" category, similar to what Glitchless did.
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Re: Revisiting oobLG

Post by Keizaron » Wed Mar 09, 2016 5:47 am

I'd love to see #1 as a sort of 151 Anything Goes and something (honestly preferably #4) as 151 Legacy. 2 and 4 seem like better "runs" than 3, with 4 being the most improv-heavy and thus, as a viewer, more entertaining.

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Re: Revisiting oobLG

Post by Sinstar » Wed Mar 09, 2016 4:25 pm

I think looking back at what happened, CT and LG Fly etc would never have been allowed if we knew they would evolve into their current state. e.g. CT was initially almost entirely different each time and involved a bunch of complex and interesting setups for a lot of mons that couldn't be gotten quickly any other way. Whereas now with all the new additions with ooblg etc all the fun ones are dead and we're left with the boring pure RNG easy ones. From my perspective there needs to be a category without LG Fly and ooblg without a doubt, the question is do we allow some amount of CT and make it an rng hellfest again or do we go with #4. I honestly don't know enough about the 151 anymore to help in a decision, but I think a category without lg fly or ooblg would give reason for me to show some interest again.
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Re: Revisiting oobLG

Post by SIVIURFY » Wed Mar 09, 2016 8:16 pm

I'm a pretty new runner to this category so I don't know how much my opinion matters, but I personally am conflicted about oobLG. I tend to think speedrunning should be about getting as fast a time as you can no matter what. But then why ban LWA? The thing is if continue down this path the run is going to become incredibly boring both to run and to watch. That's why I like the idea of two categories, one where anything goes and one that doesn't have oobLG or LG Fly. Then a discussion has to be had about possibly banning CT so the run isnt comletely frustrating to run like i understand it used to be.

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Re: Revisiting oobLG

Post by vaultbutler » Wed Mar 09, 2016 8:29 pm

Just would like to put my opinion here. I am in favour of a category which shows the fastest possible thing, ie LWA. I definitely think any other category should be something that is fun to run as well as watch. Having discussions with most current runners and for me, I would like oobLG and LGFly banned (or infinites or whatever you want to call it) and I feel like banning CT would make the category much more runnable, and only a few minutes slower.

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Re: Revisiting oobLG

Post by Mrmeanmoustache » Wed Mar 09, 2016 8:51 pm

i agree with banning ooblg, LG fly and Ct, it makes the run more exiting and more route and skill based. Spiting the catogory's with a Misc for 151 no restrictions is a good idea for this then

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Re: Revisiting oobLG

Post by Chivu » Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:55 pm

I'll make it short (cause we already had discord talk). I agree with banning oobLG and LGFly. I'm not 100% sure about banning CT, but at least for now I would not like to see it and rather see how this route is evolving.

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Re: Revisiting oobLG

Post by eddaket » Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:49 pm

When the only reason a run catches Pokemon outside of a certain glitch is because it's impossible to get with the glitch, the glitch is dumb. I'm not 100% up to speed on the Blue route, but for Yellow the current fastest route is this: Get underflow, get Moltres, Articuno, Zapdos, Horsea, and Krabby, do oobLG. Not very fun to watch, or play. I'm all for the "no mass farming glitches" type of run.

I personally wouldn't ban CT necessarily, but I don't feel so strongly that I'm gonna argue it so if the majority want it gone, then it's gone.

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Re: Revisiting oobLG

Post by Shenanagans » Fri Mar 11, 2016 10:10 pm

After discussing with the community via discord, it would appear that the unanimous consensus is to have a category split. The main category being "Catch 'em All" and banning LGFly, oobLG, and cooltrainer. A second category of "Catch 'em All no restrictions" will also be added (for the forums leaderboards unless significant interest). This category will have zero restrictions. Just catch, trade for, be gifted, or evolve into all 151 pokemon.

If anybody is opposed to this ruling please speak up as there are multiple people learning the current route, which will become outdated if these changes are accepted.

Thanks for the input and discussion everybody!
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Re: Revisiting oobLG

Post by Amoeba » Sun Mar 13, 2016 2:39 am

I'm interested in how you're defining "catch 'em all no restrictions" as having no restrictions. You're implicitly banning setting pokedex flags, I'm presuming? Otherwise its just any%-with-151-pokedex.
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Re: Revisiting oobLG

Post by eddaket » Sun Mar 13, 2016 2:20 pm

Right. The unofficial official rules say you must "catch, be gifted, trade for, or evolve into every Pokémon". Acquiring them through other means (setting dex flags, mutating a Pokémon you have into something else, etc) do not count as catching. I think we did say that you could do something like set the dex flags, but then catch everything if you wanted (this would skip the PokéDex entry screen for each catch), so this type of thing is allowed as long as you adhere to the original rule.

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