Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Discuss policy guidelines for the community and whether something needs to be changed or not.
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steppehaan
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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by steppehaan » Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:19 am

My Vote: Strongly Agree

"Instant text is fun to run. If you are behind or wanna yolo it is a perfect way to be faster.
When i Yolo i get a lot of adrenaline in my body."


The biggest reason i agree on IT is by looking what is IT exactly. In fact, if i woud play the game how it is meant to be played, i could get Instant text. The game is made to let you explore Kanto, by searching for items everywhere, and talking to people everywhere in the game. And lets be honest, if we like it or not: What do you do to get IT? You just talk to a person, youare exploring Kanto. that we as speedrunners don like it, doesnt mean it is a reason to ban it, i would say.

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Exarion » Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:47 am

My vote is: Neutral

I want to clear up a couple of misconceptions.

1. The Mega Punch route, which was one of the original reasons that several runners disliked instant text, has been shown to be suboptimal. Getting Water Gun is a 10-second sink, the extra turns saved on bridge are minor time saves because of how fast instant text is, and keeping instant text from Cerulean Rival to Bill without healing is extremely risky. Discussions about the quality of the run without instant text should reference the standard WG skip route.

2. What's allowed on the leaderboard has no relationship with what makes a good speedrun. You don't need your time to be on an official leaderboard to be happy with it. If instant text is banned/separated, Gunner's 1:48 will lose no value as a speedrun. If you dislike instant text and don't want to run with it, that is not, by itself, a reason to vote against it. A theoretical category of "any% glitchless, no instant text" could be competitive even as a miscellaneous category. Remember that any% glitchless is not even the true "main" category of Red/Blue, but it's become the most popular because it's a much more appealing and competitive run than any%. Similar examples can be found in other speedgames.
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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Gymfreak739 » Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:02 am

My Vote: Slightly agree

Points for IT

1) IT makes the game go fast One of the things I don't like about this game is waiting for text to scroll. Now we have something that makes the text go fast. I like going fast.

2) There have already been good runs with IT People have been doing IT runs for 4 months, and it would suck to instantly invalidate those runs. This problem would be fixed splitting categories, but I have my own set of reasons why I don't like that. Another discussion for another day though.

3) If you don't like IT, don't use it Pretty self-explanatory, just don't use it if you don't like it. Don't get why that is a problem.

4) I can't see the benefit of banning IT What's gonna happen if IT is banned? No more IT in runs? That's ridiculous. Split categories? That's pretty silly in my opinion. I can't see a good solution.

Points against IT

1) IT makes the runs less fun The whole point of speed running is to have fun, and IT definitely makes the run not fun in that portion of the game.

I'd also like to address the fact that people are against IT, because people can get better times without as much skill. I STRONGLY disagree with this statement, as I feel that if someone wants to use IT, and grinds out the runs for it, that person would be rewarded for it.

My vote goes to slightly agree because I can't see banning IT going well, but IT is pretty annoying to run, and it would be okay it was banned.

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by werster » Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:22 am

I would like to start by saying crafted has the best post in this thread by some margin. I would also like to stress that this post is a reflection of me as an individual, and not a staff member (until the very last line)
Shenanagans wrote:There is no difference between the method used to gain Instant Text speed and many of the other borderline glitches that we use in the glitchless route (Pokedoll Skip, Dsum, Badge Boost Abuse, ect).
It irks me greatly when people bring up badge boosts. Like what even is your argument? They should be banned? Getting hit by string shot shouldn't be allowed? Using an X Special shouldn't be allowed? Are you even making a point? I said this before (but I'll repeat it, since given you edited your vote in your post I'm guessing you didn't read it), but stacking badge boosts is something that everyone who played the game experienced whether they understood or observed it or not. It falls into this category perfectly. I can not see how you can argue that, at all.

Dsum is dumb but how the hell can you argue that not walking in grass is the same as accessing a function in the game you are not supposed to? Like, -what-
ExtraTricky wrote: I have long felt that if viewers knew about or saw the badge boost bug, then they would consider it a glitch.
Where? Where are these people? I'm sure I've had more shitters than anyone, and I have had none of this. And there are plenty of people who do know and understand badge boosts, because it's talked about a lot, it's a strat used a lot and it comes up a lot. Anyone who listens knows about it. I just, I don't know how to respond beyond this while still being considerate, so I'll stop there.
OU7C4ST wrote:Using Pokedoll was not intended to skip Marowak's Ghost (this been been proved by the updates in Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen forcing the player to do Celadon Underground). The devs have corrected their oversight in those regards.
Taking this quote from the discord, cause it's really relevant: "They also changed move accuracies, move powers, etc just because they wanted to revisit those mechanics; doesn't mean they were invalid at the time, just different"
I would like to also stress that this argument implies that using Pokedoll would be fine until 2004. It also implies that doing exactly the same thing on Red Gyarados in GSC would be allowed, based on your "deduction" work from games that are remakes. Everything about this argument in dumb.

What I am trying to make really clear in all of this is that IT isn't comparable. It isn't. So stop trying. It is different from Pokedoll, it is different from Badge Boosts, and Dsum, and red bar, and 1/256, and everything else. Trying to usurp one another by trying to assert "what a glitch is" is not helpful, at all. We end up in shitting contests, because as much as you all want there to be, there is no objective definition of what a glitch is.

The question is Should Instant Text by allowed for Any% Glitchless. Please focus on that.

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by joshoneate » Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:18 am

If it is solely up to whether personally wanting IT in the category or not and disregarding everything else, I prefer to not have IT in the runs because super fast scrolling text boxes to save time seems like a stupid strat instead of actually thinking of original ideas. However, I still believe it is disgusting it took until now to discuss this so instead of Strongly Disagree I Slightly Disagree

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Shenanagans » Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:56 am

werster wrote:
Shenanagans wrote:There is no difference between the method used to gain Instant Text speed and many of the other borderline glitches that we use in the glitchless route (Pokedoll Skip, Dsum, Badge Boost Abuse, ect).
It irks me greatly when people bring up badge boosts. Like what even is your argument? They should be banned? Getting hit by string shot shouldn't be allowed? Using an X Special shouldn't be allowed? Are you even making a point? I said this before (but I'll repeat it, since given you edited your vote in your post I'm guessing you didn't read it), but stacking badge boosts is something that everyone who played the game experienced whether they understood or observed it or not. It falls into this category perfectly. I can not see how you can argue that, at all.

Dsum is dumb but how the hell can you argue that not walking in grass is the same as accessing a function in the game you are not supposed to? Like, -what-

The question is Should Instant Text by allowed for Any% Glitchless. Please focus on that.
My point for badge boosts was that part of the route you use an xspecial to gain speed to outspeed an alakazam. No matter how you look at it you are clearly exploiting a bug to save time in the Viridian Rival fight. Banning xitems would be stupid, but it is clear that we take advantage of koga's badge.

My point about dsum is that a lot of people are arguing that IT looks bad for a casual viewer. People have trouble explaining why walking all the way to the bike shop and talking to the guy to access faster text speed is allowed in glitchless. Dsum can also look like a clear exploit for a casual watcher. You need a nidoran, dont look for encounters until 2 seconds later. Casual viewers may see this as exploiting part of the game (though it clearly isnt a glitch).

Why is declining the text from the bike shop owner by using the B button banned but using the A button allowed?

This discussion isn't about whether or not IT is a glitch (this matter has already been settled) but when I made my post I was under the impression that this topic was to discuss if IT was a glitch or not. Once I saw the nature of the debate I changed my vote.
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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Maquina_azul30 » Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:32 am

My Vote: Strongly Disagree

I just wish this was brought up before runner got his 1:48, this is extremely unfair to him

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Keizaron » Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:36 am

Shenanagans wrote:My point about dsum is that a lot of people are arguing that IT looks bad for a casual viewer. People have trouble explaining why walking all the way to the bike shop and talking to the guy to access faster text speed is allowed in glitchless. Dsum can also look like a clear exploit for a casual watcher. You need a nidoran, dont look for encounters until 2 seconds later. Casual viewers may see this as exploiting part of the game (though it clearly isnt a glitch).
DSum isn't something that I think people see as exploiting a game. Much like bosses in platformers have patterns, encounters have patterns in gen 1. That is the simplest relatable comparison and I don't really think it's a good basis to judge IT.

(also you weren't supposed to edit your post for a vote change, you were supposed to make a new post so everything is catalogued)

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by mumpfel77 » Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:47 am

Whenever I say the word "glitch", you can replace it with "overseight" or with any other word that you think fits best. I dont care about the semantics and we certainly do not have an objective definition of what a glitch is and what not.

One argument that I hear a lot is that we already use glitches in the run, so we also have to allow Instant Text. Most of these glitches you can't possibly forbid, like DSUM, X Items, fastscrolling, or all the other weird comparisons that have been made. The one glitch that we use and that could be banned is Pokeflute. Now here is the thing: If we would design the perfect speedrun from the get-go, with no current ruleset and without having all these runs on the leaderboards from the last 3 years - I think it would be a perfectly fine decision to ban Pokeflute. The problem however is, we have a full leaderboard with runs that all use Pokeflute, and I don't think we can realistically ban Pokeflute because of that. Which means that we are stuck with Pokeflute forever. Now here comes the point that you might disagree with: In my opinion, I dont think the fact that pokedoll is allowed (which we can't change) means that we have to allow all the glitches that we find in the future. The decision to allow Pokedoll from 3 years ago does not have to determine our decision today.

In my opinion we don't need to have a 100% consistent ruleset. And even if everyone else would want a 100% consistent ruleset: It's not clear at all whether Pokedoll and Instant Text are the same kind of glitch. In my opinion they are quite different.

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by ExtraTricky » Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:03 am

After some discussion in discord, I realized I don't really agree with any of the options being presented here. Nearly everyone seems to be unopposed to a leaderboard for the other category existing, but they want their preferred category to be the standard category, or at least a main category.

Trying to pick one of the two categories to be standard does not seem to me to be a decision that can be resolved with discussions like this. Therefore, I'd prefer for neither category to inherit the name "Any% Glitchless", because that implicitly endorses that category as the standard. Here are some possible outcomes that I would be happy with (roughly indifferent between all of them). The common theme here is that both the run with IT and without are treated equally.

1) There are two categories: "Any% Glitchless (Instant Text)" and "Any% Glitchless (No Instant Text)" (can substitute an alternative phrase like "No Major Glitches" for "Glitchless"). Both would be main categories. Any current runs without instant text would be on both leaderboards (though people can withdraw from the IT leaderboard if they want), and any current runs with instant text would be on the instant text leaderboard. I would be happy with other names that treat the categories neutrally, but if one category has a qualifier like "no instant text" and the other does not have a qualifier, that implicitly favors the category that doesn't have a qualifier.

2) "Any% Glitchless" is a new category that does not allow using Pokedoll on Marowak. Both pokedoll-skip categories would be misc/nonstandard. This would essentially include a leaderboard reset.

3) The English leaderboard is abolished (or moved to misc) and we consolidate under Japanese rules.

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Wadiwadum » Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:40 am

I disagree when you compare Badge Boost, Fast scrolling, Pokédoll, and Instant Text. I know about the word oversight and the meanings of it but there are different kinds of oversights when it comes to speedrunning, let me explain myself :

- Badge Boost is in no way, in my opinion, a mechanic that we should not use for the simple reason that it's part of the game and it is hard to tell about the fact that it is intended or not just by playing the game. Brock says your Boulderbadge pumps up the attack of your pokémon, reapplying this boost when a stat change occurs does what it is supposed to do : you get some attack stats (or whatever the stat is of course). It is close to a glitch if not one but we use this to boost our Nidoking's stats and this is exactly what badge does in the first place even if we do it in a counterintuitive way.

- I think that Fast scrolling should not even be in this discussion because we simply reduce lag, maybe the devs did not think about that because speedrun was certainly not a thing to their minds but I mean, reducing lag by looking at the ground on Golden Eye N64 is definitely playing the game in a way that wasn't intended but it's just using the way the console and the game work to save time.

- Pokédoll is of course the shadiest one of those because it definitely should not happen in the first place. However using the item in the way it is supposed to be used seems acceptable IF it's not a glitch -and we all know it's not- and requires no other setup than buying a Pokédoll perfectly legally.

- When it comes to Instant Text there are a few things that are different. The first one is the way to get it, by talking to the bike shop owner you wanna know what this NPC offers you in the game : either you pay for a million dollar bicycle or you go away. Cancelling this text box results in having 1 frame text boxes until you open the menu or whatever, this is not even close to what this NPC is in the game for, right ?
The other point here is about speedrunning and this is more concerning to us of course. When you use IT it removes some decisions from the run because you have to stay in etc etc... If this hadn't such consquences on your time I would be ok with that but we all know that saving a minute in a place where you can normally never do so by removing decision making and rewarding you for nothing but mashing is terrible.

We already have Gyarados critical (unless YoloDrill) and Gen1 to lose runs in ways that we cannot do anything about, why would we use IT and restrain ourselves to more moments where you have no choice but crossing your fingers ? It's all about time, we could not die to Gyarados critical if we had a higher level and we could survive and attack after a gen 1 miss if we weren't in red bar but these are risks we are willing to take because there is nothing we can do to stop Gyarados for critical or the game to Gen1. When it comes to Instant Text, allowing the use of this mechanic is -once again in my opinion- shooting ourselves in the foot because it makes runs less enjoyable for us (don't tell me you enjoy the moment where you get sand attacked and cannot switch out risking to get sand attacked again) AND for the viewers.

My 2cents, I will stop posting about that from now on because we have got to focus on the primary question : should IT be allowed or not ?

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by SurrealGuy » Sat Feb 20, 2016 11:20 am

I don't think, I'm allowed to vote, because I just run Catch`em all glitchless, but I also want to throw my opinio in here.
To me, Pokedoll is clearly not a glitch, because it just does what the Pokedoll does (ends a wild encounter).
IT is also not a glitch, but it definitely looks and feels glitchy (to me as a "runner" as well as for the viewers).
Trebien (my 150 coop runner) and I decided to not use IT in our runs, because it like I said feels like a glitch and most importantly:
If we were to use IT, then what about surfing on Cinnabar Coast for the hard to catch SafariPokes like Tauros/Kangha? Doesn't classify as a glitch to me aswell, just an oversight like IT. But it would definitely feel like a glitch and would just destroy the run and make it way less fun (even though Safari Zone can be a pain).

Of course SafariZone has nothing to do with any% glitchless, but I see Cinnabar surfing as an equivalent issue to IT.

If I could vote, my vote would be neutral.
Just make any% IT/no IT a separate/misc category. What's the big deal? Even if one of those two isn't run as much as the other one, it just doesn't matter. I'd just give people the opportunity to choose. (f.e. Alttp No major glitches with S&Q isn't run by anyone really seriously, yet it still is one of the main categories)

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Kylovic » Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:11 pm

My vote is: Neutral

I´m pretty much on the same side as a lot of guys: Why is this brought up again instantly after Gunner got his 1:48?
This discussion could have been done right after IT was discovered, or a bit later too so that people could experiment with it.

I just think having 2 seperate categories is meh. I´d agree to steppe: depending on your mood/run you can go for it or don´t. Also what Exarion about MP etc.

But I´m prolly not the best to give opinion on this since I don´t run Red seriously anymore.
Going full TriHard on Gold Any% 24/7!

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by crrool » Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:56 pm

Though Im not running Red much these days, I do want to put my 2 cents out there. For me there are 2 ends to this problem. The first one being as to wether this is a glitch or not and the 2nd one being how we define a glitch. I agree in that it is a glitch, just as that pokédoll is a glitch and to me just as jingle skipping, red bar and badge boost abuses are all minor glitches in the game. That being said, it would seem normal to assume it not being in if we decide to mark it as an actual glitch. However, having seen and done many games where the boundaries of glitchless are defined as "no major glitches" (which, lets be honest, gen 1 should be defined as as there are so many little "glitches") I end up voting in favor of having IT in what I have always considered Any% No major glitches and to me there is no difference between pokédoll and this (although I consider pokédoll a bigger glitch, but y'know)

my vote: Strongly agree

That being said, I would also favor a vote on renaming it Any% no major glitches at this point, but thats just my 2 cents.

Lastly, giving a game more RNG and less excecution with it being faster is not a reason to not do it. You can come up with plenty of less safe strats to get times down (yolo-lorelei as a clear example). Using the strat is up to the player, if you dont like it, then simply dont do it. This is not the massive time-gap that would be created by a bigger glitch (like pokédoll which makes you skip an entire "dungeon")

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Shiru666 » Sun Feb 21, 2016 12:41 am

My point for badge boosts was that part of the route you use an xspecial to gain speed to outspeed an alakazam. No matter how you look at it you are clearly exploiting a bug to save time in the Viridian Rival fight. Banning xitems would be stupid, but it is clear that we take advantage of koga's badge.
The fact that you exploit that bug for that fight doesn't mean anything. The glitch will still be there regardless of you using that on purpose or not, so getting hit by screech or using an X Special to outspeed Alakazam goes in the same pack. The bug is absolutely unavoidable, so the fact that it's intentional doesn't make it less legal.

Quoting that example just brings up that Any% Glitchess is a bad name, but this is not the main discussion right now.

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by snorms » Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:49 am

Depending on the results of this poll, this community has a difficult decision to make in terms of how the leaderboards are handled. I believe that the way this issue should be dealt with should be likened to that of an extremely similar issue which occured in the sport of swimming. For those who are not familiar with this issue I will link the details at the bottom of this post and also write a short summary.

In 2008 a swimsuit was designed that allowed swimmers to reduce their times from anywhere between 2-4%, which resulted in almost 130 world records being broken. The suit was then banned a year later, however the times set with the suit remained valid as world records.

This issue is almost identical in nature to that of the use of instant text in Pokemon Red Speedruns. An improvement was made that reduced times by a small amount, which in turn resulted in a world record being broken. The decision to allow the time save was then (possibly) overturned. However, during the period where it was part of the rules all times were valid and therefore will remain on the leaderboards. This is what I believe should happen with the Red leaderboard if the original ruling is in fact overturned. I know this post is slightly off topic but I thought it was an important point to bring up in terms of how the issue is handled later on.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History ... _swimsuits

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Keizaron » Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:38 pm

snorms, Sylarclone had already mentioned this here.

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Patastrophe » Mon Feb 22, 2016 7:03 pm

My vote is: slightly disagree with allowing IT.

I'll say it like this. I realize my times are nothing earth shattering, PB is a 2:05 (unrecorded) and I've got a recorded 2:07. (I'm not even sure if I've even submitted yet, but you can check my youtube if somebody thinks I haven't broken the 2:10 mark)

1. I personally feel that it turns the entire middle of the run into a ~15 minute YOLO fest. From (more or less) the moment you exit moon, up until post SS Anne Rival menus, there is very little room for strategy - due to the (misplaced) emphasis on "World Records" and "Best Times" in the speedrunning community. The reward for the risk is ~1 minute+ of in game time. If things don't go perfectly right, reset and try again.

If people want to be pushing the boundaries of what is technically possible - this will become mandatory - similar to the way that skipping Game Corner / Silph Scope is mandatory to compete in the any% Glitchless category - as it will not be possible to beat extremely lucky records if IT is allowed to progress further. It is not a question of if, it is a question of when somebody farms a lucky enough route.

There are people here who are saying "then don't run the game with IT". I think the community has to answer the question, do we consider ~15 minutes of RNG to be the defining moment in what makes the Any% Glitchless best time.

[*]If the answer is "yes" - by all means, let IT stand

[*]If the answer is "no" - we should remove IT and focus that portion of the game on execution and strategy.

2. This particularly curious rule for Any% Glitchless

Code: Select all

Having a save file present on the cart/emulator when you start the run is not allowed. This rule is in place to prevent carrying over certain parts of save data from the old file, such as the glitched "fastest" text speed. You can use Up+B+Select on the title screen to clear your save data.
Using the logic that IT is somehow "intended" and "not a glitch, rather an oversight" - shouldn't prior saves be allowed, as whatever unintended consequences being carried over are an oversight, because those flags haven't been set/reset correctly (i.e. in an identical manner to Bike Shop Guy).

I suppose that not clearing the player name flag from the memory address that stores encounter data should also somehow be considered an oversight. As this is fundamentally no different.

The peculiar wording used- as the very rules themselves state, the glitched fastest text speed - becomes increasingly hilarious within the framework of this argument.

I'm sure I could rant further, but I tried to bring two things that I don't think were well explained or discussed by previous commentators.

To wrap up - I *firmly* believe we should hold all IT Records as of an arbitrary date (say, the day of the imposed ban) as the Olympic Committee has in the past if we remove IT from the game.

If we do NOT remove IT from the game, we should take the existing leaderboard and transition/rename it to Any% No Major Glitches and create an new category Any% Glitchless that bans PokeDoll and IT - as other speedrunning communities have.

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Dabomstew » Mon Feb 22, 2016 7:50 pm

Quickly addressing "IT from a save file" vs "Bike Shop IT" - they are actually two different systems entirely within the game code. The difference is that the Bike Shop IT variant is activated by the game quite often to render certain text instantly that is intended to be rendered instantly to begin with, while save file IT is a state that you can never reach without setting it yourself manually through glitches. There is simply no way to set a file's text speed to 0 via legal means. Looking at it this way, the game carrying over text speed between files isn't really an oversight at all under legal conditions.

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Patastrophe » Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:15 pm

Dabomstew wrote:Quickly addressing "IT from a save file" vs "Bike Shop IT" - they are actually two different systems entirely within the game code. The difference is that the Bike Shop IT variant is activated by the game quite often to render certain text instantly that is intended to be rendered instantly to begin with, while save file IT is a state that you can never reach without setting it yourself manually through glitches. There is simply no way to set a file's text speed to 0 via legal means. Looking at it this way, the game carrying over text speed between files isn't really an oversight at all under legal conditions.
I think what you said just proved my point, it is a direct oversight, because they never anticipated you to be able to get to the state the game is in in the first place (ie: under all the legal means the player has, we should never have to check if they have instant text here).

The bike shop providing instant text is much in the same way. The player having dialog boxes that have permanent instant text (until one of the cancelling menus are applied) isn't ever anticipated - so it isn't ever cancelled. To my understanding, it stems from having two lines of code out of order to set the game in a state that would be illegal under normal circumstances.

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Patastrophe » Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:23 pm

For reference, to understand how the bike shop script works - take a look at this pastebin:

http://pastebin.com/H7cA9hNp

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Patastrophe » Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:33 pm

The correct sequence should be (if I understand how this works correctly) -

ld hl, wd730 -> Loads into register HL, the address of WD730, a byte of information that the 6th bit contains the override for instant text
res 6, [hl] -> Reset the 6th bit of register HL (to zero, it's default value)
jr nz, .cancel -> Jump to the cancel function

Keizaron
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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Keizaron » Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:38 pm

Just a friendly reminder that while I'm sure you're just trying to explain your view on it better, Dabomstew was just clarifying why the current rule is in place. This isn't the place to discuss the actual "glitch" argument of Instant Text, this is just your place to cast your vote and explain why.

Ffancrzy
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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Ffancrzy » Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:28 pm

Greetings! I registered an account here fresh, but I do have a 2:03 in Red Glitchless so I figured I'd put my 2 cents in, since I wasn't paying attention to the scene when the IT exploit first got discovered.

I'm going to be a bit long winded, so I apologize.

I have a passion for game design and rule sets. I believe in rule sets there are a lot of things you need to take into account, especially if there is some aspect of competition involved.

One thing I think gets a bit UNDERSOLD is the ability to easily "grok" the rules. In other words, they should align with the average persons expectations.

1 example of this I can think of is in American Football, there has been a lot of talk over what constitutes a "catch". Now everyone understands what "catch" means. If I throw a football to you, you'll surely know if you manage to "catch" it. However the NFL has had many high profile plays where as Ex-NFL Coach and Analyst John Madden puts it "If 3 guys sitting in bar all know it's a catch, it is."

However if on a particular play such as the Calvin Johnson No Catch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq2ohfX_AzI, the "3 Guys Rule" doesn't apply, the ref might have been technically correct, but it surely means the rule needs to be looked at.

Now what does this random NFL garbage have to do with pokemon speedruns?

Well if you ask the average twitch viewer who's played Gen 1 in their life, "Is this a glitch" when they look at IT, or maybe the "3 Guys in a twitch chat" rule, They're probably going to say "Yes, obviously". If you have a hard time explaining to someone who's viewing how something ISN'T a glitch, even if you're technically correct, you might want to consider the rule.

However, as has been stated in the previous discussion, its just as much an oversight as the "Badge Boost" bonus is or "Jingle Skips"

The main differences between these is that "Instant Text" won't be randomly come across in normal gameplay, where as Badge Boosts and Jingle Skips CAN be unavoidable in certain circumstances (aka a Weedle Stringshots you on Route 3, allowing you to 2 shot the following Caterpie you might not have been able to). So you obviously can't invalidate the entire run if you get string shot after beating Brock. The fact that we happen to intentionally use this mechanic such as X-Special to outspeed something, or using rare candy to setup red bar after Koga isn't relevant because we're just using something that couldn't be avoided in some circumstances. Instant Text is very deliberate and wouldn't come up in a normal gameplay otherwise, especially considering the conditions that get rid of it (accessing menu's, Yes/No Dialog boxes etc).

To play devils advocate to myself I will say people had complained the category had gotten stale and really repetitive to grind since there weren't new discoveries being made. IT definitely threw some spice into this category, prompting route changes to be made etc. Additionally the fact that runners like Gunner and Snorms had ground out good (or in Gunner's case World Record) times makes the timing of this discussion pretty horrendous.

I lost track of some of what I was going to say, but no one really knows who I am anyways so I'll just leave it at this

My Vote: Slightly Disagree

It would probably be "Strongly" if it weren't for the work put in by runners like Gunner and Snorms

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Myzlstyx
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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Myzlstyx » Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:34 am

Time for my brief input on the matter:

I don't have a strong opinion on the matter as far as allowing/disallowing IT in the category, and my vote will reflect such. That being said, I want to address the topic that was mentioned at the start about the initial decision to make it permissible.

A lot of people view the initial choice to allow it to be rushed, but as far as I'm concerned, I agree with werster. When the topic was first brought up, the decision was made after some discussion to allow it, but was denoted with the statement "Pending further discussion." Now the fact that the discussion had to come as a result of the first 1:48 is a bit bothersome, but I'm more than happy with the way the whole thing has been handled.

My vote is: Neutral

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