Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Discuss policy guidelines for the community and whether something needs to be changed or not.
swizelstick
Preschooler
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:40 am

Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by swizelstick » Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:51 am

First of all, not a runner, so I get no vote. However, I think I can bring a perspective on this as being only a viewer. The name of the category is any% glitchless. If IT has been determined to not be a glitch, or is iffy on being a glitch, then I don't get the discussion on banning IT. I watch gunner's stream fairly regularly, and his is the only stream that I really ever watch, so you can take what I say with a grain of salt. But it seems to me that gunner is asked why IT isn't a glitch just about as often as why Pokedoll isn't a glitch. To me, the two seem linked. If you allow Pokedoll, you should allow IT.

That being said, it would be much more entertaining for the viewer to have a "Any% No Major Glitches" category. I would love to see the game run as it was meant to be played, Celadon Game corner included. To me, IT is neutral. It's neither entertaining nor boring. In terms of entertainment value, it's like walking through grass with repel. If you want the run to be entertaining, then you have to play the game that people remember playing the game. Part of the entertainment of speed running is seeing how fast people can beat the game that took you hours upon hours to complete. Not including Celadon game corner cheapens that experience. So, as a viewer, I would much rather see an Any% No Major Glitches/Unintended use of programming category than I would an any% glitchless that's split on whether you can use IT or not.

eddaket
Schoolkid
Posts: 37
Joined: Sun May 11, 2014 7:25 pm

Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by eddaket » Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:01 pm

Just a quick explanation from a dev programmer on why I think that even if you classify IT and PokeDoll both as glitches, they are very different things.

(This assumes both are glitches. That is not my personal view, but it's assumed here to make a point).

The PokeDoll to me is more of a function specification issue than a code issue. The functional spec likely didn't say anything about disallowing the PokeDoll from being used on the fight, which makes this a Design issue. The code is doing what it's supposed to do with the information given to the programmer.

Instant Text to me is more of a code issue. This sort of functionality (enable IT, display text box, disable IT) happens throughout the game in a bunch of places. This particular case, taking to the bike shop owner, the last part of that code snippet is missing which makes this a Code Issue. The code isn't doing what it's supposed to because a piece is missing.

---

Now I know we know nothing about intention, specifications, etc etc. The above is just a personal opinion of mine and how I interpret and distinguish the two.

User avatar
Amoeba
Cooltrainer
Posts: 280
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:26 am
Contact:

Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Amoeba » Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:15 pm

Guys, multiple people, mods/staff/whatever, have said now that this isn't a topic to discuss whether IT is a glitch.

For the hard of hearing:

For the purposes of Pokemon Speedruns, Instant Text is not considered a glitch.

This topic is to discuss whether IT has a place in any% glitchless, and that alone. There's another thread to discuss whether it's a glitch or not right here.
~

swizelstick
Preschooler
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:40 am

Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by swizelstick » Tue Feb 23, 2016 4:09 pm

If above post was directed at my comment, I don't think I focused on whether it was a glitch, but made a language argument and a comparison to Pokedoll. Since IT has already been considered to not be a glitch, it doesn't make sense to ban it if you're going to call the category any% glitchless. It's not a glitch, so it conforms with the rules of the run.

As for the Pokedoll comparison, I brought up that both IT and Pokedoll are often considered glitches by new viewers to show how similar the two are.Allowing Pokedoll but not allowing IT is contradictory if both are considered not glitches.

I believe the argument below mine was trying to differentiate between why Pokedoll is allowed and IT is different for Pokedoll, event though the user mentioned the word glitch. I don't think anyone is able to effectively argue for IT without using the word glitch.

If you weren't able to understand the arguments, I apologize. I'll try to be more clear in the future.

entrpntr
Pokémon Trainer
Posts: 141
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:22 pm

Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by entrpntr » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:57 am

Since November, there really have been only two fundamental factors at play in the Instant Text debate: (1) the semantics of whether Instant Text constitutes a "glitch", (2) the impact on how enjoyable it made the category. Back in November, it appeared the community's consensus was that the semantics arguments leaned largely in favor of allowing Instant Text and enjoyability arguments leaned largely in favor of banning Instant Text (of course there's some disagreement on both matters). As far as I can tell, not much has changed since November, except the enjoyability arguments have more empirical evidence at their disposal.

The community is clearly divided in opinion on the question posed in werster's OP, but it's also clear that it is not a particularly healthy divide. The catalyst for revisiting Instant Text is absolutely Gunner's 1:48, with a couple of runners reacting on discord by lobbing personal attacks at the admins for allowing Instant Text in the first place (to be clear, it had nothing to do with Gunner personally, just the nature of his run being "proof" that Instant Text was "bad"). It doesn't take a genius to see many people will be similarly upset if the decision is reversed.

In the ensuing discussion in the discord chat, there seemed to be a strong consensus that: (1) Instant Text should not be banned ("unfair to Gunner/snorms" and "bad precedent to reverse this late" being themes), (2) enjoyability should be a factor in determining categories (though not necessarily all categories). There was less agreement on whether the situation warranted splitting up categories into Instant Text & No Instant Text and/or whether to rename the category or categories we decide on (how to name categories in case of a split, should it be called "Glitchless" or "No Major Glitches", etc).

My proposal would be to branch into 2 categories: (1) a legacy "Glitchless" category with the old ruleset permanently in place (Instant Text is banned and future glitch discoveries are banned by default), (2) a "No Major Glitches" category with Instant Text allowed as well as any future minor glitch discoveries.

There are plenty of benefits to a solution along these lines. First, this seems to be a fair compromise that will please the vast majority of the community. Second, the legacy (or classic, or w/e name you want) ruleset is already known to produce runs generally considered enjoyable by the community; it's fair to say there wouldn't be such a visceral reaction to the Instant Text route without the pre-IT route as a frame of reference. Third, we would shift any future arguments from focusing on whether something is a glitch to whether something breaks the game to an unreasonable degree. It's still an arbitrary judgment call, but I think it is pretty clear that we're better suited to make those decisions than we are in deciding whether something is a glitch. (At least as far as Gen 1 is concerned, with all the wondrous quirks in the game's programming.)

I don't have a vote, and the conversation wasn't framed to make an an approach along these lines feasible (at least not in the initial phase), but I do hope it is considered by the community and its leadership.

WasabiKnight
Preschooler
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:04 pm

Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by WasabiKnight » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:10 pm

I just want to add in on entrpntr's post. I absolutely agree with everything he said, I think his solution is easily the most viable one since it lets the current leaderboard stay as it is and pleases everyone else at the same time (for the most part).

I just want to add that, if we're making these changes to the categories, we should make a no IT/no Poké Doll category as well... I know I already said this, and I'm only saying it again to make it clear how good of an idea it is, because I know people from outside the community aren't going to like the idea of banning IT and not Poké Doll. Besides, having a third category with the "Japanese ruleset" appeases both the viewers who consider all of these things a glitch as well as the japanese community, it's a win-win.

HorouIchigo
Bug Catcher
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:45 pm

Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by HorouIchigo » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:48 pm

WasabiKnight wrote:I just want to add that, if we're making these changes to the categories, we should make a no IT/no Poké Doll category as well... I know I already said this, and I'm only saying it again to make it clear how good of an idea it is, because I know people from outside the community aren't going to like the idea of banning IT and not Poké Doll. Besides, having a third category with the "Japanese ruleset" appeases both the viewers who consider all of these things a glitch as well as the japanese community, it's a win-win.
A) Again, PokéDoll issue has been tended too a number of times that it's NO LONGER RELEVANT to this discussion. People who still complain about PokéDoll are clearly just the reddit shitter who complains about every single glitch/skip/sequence break on every speedrun ever made. Get over it.

B) And why would we be caring about "people from outside the community" not liking about our internal decisions? I'm just baffled by this statement. Who are these people whose opinion is so relevant that it MUST BE attended too? No one, is the real answer. This issue ONLY concerns people who are FROM THE POKEMON SPEEDRUNS COMMUNITY, that ACTIVELY RUN RED ANY% GLITCHLESS, clearly explained on werster's OP why the voting should only done by people WHO HAVE RAN THE GAME and have a time that's not from a blind/casual playthru that intends to mimic the route. Other actively and influencial community members clearly can have a say and an opinion, and it can be insightful, but final decision must come from people who will be actually affected by the decision that comes from this thread: Pokémon Red Any% Glitchless runners. I've seen people from outside the community talk shit (not even talking about reddit post that moobs linked, that one is just pure comedic value) when they clearly have no clue on what they're on about, why would you even remotely care about what they think.

C) If you want to run with the "Japanese ruleset", just get yourself a Japanese cart and play the game in japanese with the nico rules. Why should we ever add another set of rules when there's already a leaderboard with the ruleset you're talking about? Makes zero sense.
http://www.twitch.tv/horouichigo click the shiny link, you know you want to Kappa

Keizaron
Site Admin
Posts: 273
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:13 pm
Location: Spokane, WA
Contact:

Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Keizaron » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:54 pm

Friendly reminder to keep things civil and focus on the actual topic at hand:
To be more clear, this is only a vote on whether Instant Text is banned for Any% Glitchless. Only if it is ruled to be banned, will there then be a possible discussion about making a separate category for "Any% Glitchless with Instant Text". That, at this stage, is not up for discussion (If you think this should be the case, you are voting to ban it here)

Famarok
Preschooler
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 3:38 pm

Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Famarok » Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:21 pm

My vote: Slightly agree

I personally dislike IT and do not see myself ever using it for attempts, but at the same time I can understand why it is/might be appealing to a lot of runners. IT has been around for quite a while, and credit should in my opinion not be removed from runners who have completed runs within this rule set.

Gymfreak739
Schoolkid
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:05 pm

Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Gymfreak739 » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:35 am

My Revote: Slightly Disagree

Only revoting cause I realize that splitting categories is the way to go

User avatar
Shenanagans
Site Admin
Posts: 116
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:59 am
Location: Ohio, USA
Contact:

Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Shenanagans » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:02 am

I feel like most runners are in favor of a split leaderboard for something along the lines of Glitchless (no IT) and Glitchless (with IT). However I find it somewhat silly to have 2 leaderboards with nearly identical times as main series runs.

One way I thought to keep the leaderboard as clean as it currently is would be to add a column for "Was IT used" (similar to how we have a column for emulator vs console). We could then add a filter for this feature so you could filter runs by IT use (just like we do for emulators).

The biggest issue with this would be that all runs would be on by default, which would make the runs with IT look "better" until you filter them out.
Feel free to follow me for all your Pokemon Resetting Needs!

Image Image Image

Mrmeanmoustache
Preschooler
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2015 10:29 pm

Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Mrmeanmoustache » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:49 am

My Vote- Strongly agree

i think we should just keep it in, i saw shan saying it already, but it definetly need skill, how are you gonna route every thing, IT can make your run or completly break it (or Segment)

so i think you definitly need to keep IT in the run.

Ps Don't know if this vote counts because my New Pb Isn't confirmed yet so pb on Speedrun.com is 2:11 :D

User avatar
Decon082
Jr. Trainer
Posts: 90
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:47 am
Contact:

Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Decon082 » Thu Feb 25, 2016 3:25 pm

entrpntr wrote:Since November, there really have been only two fundamental factors at play in the Instant Text debate: (1) the semantics of whether Instant Text constitutes a "glitch", (2) the impact on how enjoyable it made the category. Back in November, it appeared the community's consensus was that the semantics arguments leaned largely in favor of allowing Instant Text and enjoyability arguments leaned largely in favor of banning Instant Text (of course there's some disagreement on both matters). As far as I can tell, not much has changed since November, except the enjoyability arguments have more empirical evidence at their disposal.
I really don't think enjoyability should have any say in what constitutes a category existing. If a category isn't fun, then that's an opinion that somebody has. Even if it were the case that 90% of people were opposed to IT, there would still be people who enjoy it and would want to use it. Since we are under the current status that IT is not a glitch, I see no reason to remove IT from a category just because it's not enjoyable to some people, even if that "some" happens to be a majority.

But what you can do is make two categories, and add in the new one for runs that don't use IT. If the majority of runners do runs without IT and that category becomes more popular, that's fine. The situation is similar to glitched categories in Gen 1 in the past, Any% vs. Any% Single Segment (now NSC), where nobody had serious interest in pure Any% for because of how simple and uncompetitive it was, whereas Any% SS had more gameplay and people would run it instead, even before it had official leaderboards. But the appearance of a new category shouldn't take away anything from the old category. If you don't like IT, then it's fine because you have your own leaderboards with no IT. If you like IT, then you have your own leaderboards as well.
Shenanagans wrote:I feel like most runners are in favor of a split leaderboard for something along the lines of Glitchless (no IT) and Glitchless (with IT). However I find it somewhat silly to have 2 leaderboards with nearly identical times as main series runs.

One way I thought to keep the leaderboard as clean as it currently is would be to add a column for "Was IT used" (similar to how we have a column for emulator vs console). We could then add a filter for this feature so you could filter runs by IT use (just like we do for emulators).
I think that if we were to keep a single category, I think this makes a lot of sense. In contrast, having one category for only runs with IT and one category for only runs without IT doesn't make a lot of sense. I think runs that don't use IT should be allowed in both categories, assuming the names are what we theorized. (It's like submitting a glitchless run for NSC because it technically fits the category ruleset. It only sounds stupid because it's a 1:30+ difference in time rather than a 0:01+ difference.) But then you would either have to submit your runs to both leaderboards, or a moderator would have to keep both leaderboards consistent.

This would be equivalent to having the filter, except you would have more confusion and effort, so a filter would be much easier and show the same information on the leaderboards. The way I see it, being a "glorious non-IT user" who wants to look to see where they rank on the leaderboards is no different than the current status of being a "glorious console user" who has to filter away emulator times to see where they rank. Kappa
I am the person who has ruined Red "Glitchless" forever and seconhandedly, Blue NSC Single Segment too
http://www.twitch.tv/iateyourpie/subscribe
Image

noobcubed
Bug Catcher
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:00 pm

Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by noobcubed » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:11 pm

Not a runner, not even that big a fan of gen I glitchless but my $0.02:

If it has been decided that instant text is not a glitch (and personally I feel that it is no worse than, say, 100% accurate OHKO moves, as both are coding errors rather than design flaws), then it seems a little perverse to argue that it should nevertheless be banned from any% glitchless. It does add an extra layer of interesting strategy as it affects menuing in the following few minutes, and rewards risk-taking by keeping Nido on low health - it's not just some new trick that saves exactly thirty seconds on every run.

As far as entertainment goes... well, I don't think it makes too much of a difference either way, if anything it makes it more entertaining to watch as it encourages the runner to yolo a bit harder, to avoid going into a menu and losing instant text. Entertainment should ideally not determine official categories (meme categories are a different story entirely), but there is precedent here with 151 which has repeatedly undergone highly technical and somewhat artificial rule changes to stop the category being destroyed. And the extent to which entertainment should guide the rules is very limited. I could argue "ban X Accuracy because watching every fight beaten with X Speed, X Accuracy, Horn Drill x 5 is dull", but I would be quite rightly shot down in flames for saying so.

Patastrophe
Preschooler
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:23 pm
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Patastrophe » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:39 pm

entrpntr wrote: My proposal would be to branch into 2 categories: (1) a legacy "Glitchless" category with the old ruleset permanently in place (Instant Text is banned and future glitch discoveries are banned by default), (2) a "No Major Glitches" category with Instant Text allowed as well as any future minor glitch discoveries.
The reason I proposed "Any% Glitchless" and "Any% No Major Glitches"?

With IT+% / Legacy% only, you'd have leader boards separated by maybe two minutes using 1:48 as a baseline for Legacy% and 1:47 for IT+% in the run's current state. This isn't like SM64 where disallowing no side BLJ drastically alters the route for such a small change.

This same reason is why I proposed No Pokedoll / No IT for Any% Glitchless, whereas NMG would allow all (reasonable) future developments. It would allow the categories to become distinct and separate, it is not the exact same category with a few tweaks here and there.

Exarion
Cooltrainer
Posts: 249
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:07 am

Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Exarion » Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:56 am

noobcubed wrote:Not a runner, not even that big a fan of gen I glitchless but my $0.02:

If it has been decided that instant text is not a glitch (and personally I feel that it is no worse than, say, 100% accurate OHKO moves, as both are coding errors rather than design flaws), then it seems a little perverse to argue that it should nevertheless be banned from any% glitchless.
This is a common misconception. X Accuracy in gens 1 and 2 was designed to bypass the accuracy check, not boost the accuracy stat. It's just one of many mechanics in Pokemon games that are abused for speedrunning.
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/exarionu
Pokemon Red speedrunning guide: http://pastebin.com/CkVA5yvJ

Keizaron
Site Admin
Posts: 273
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:13 pm
Location: Spokane, WA
Contact:

Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Keizaron » Fri Feb 26, 2016 3:14 pm


Locked

Return to “Policy Changes”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests