Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Discuss policy guidelines for the community and whether something needs to be changed or not.
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Decon082
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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Decon082 » Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:34 pm

Adding in what I discussed with Keizaron.

Answering the original question, I definitely think IT should be allowed for Glitchless, there's no question there. But I know a lot of people will disagree. I don't really care what the final decision is, as long as IT gets to remain on a visible leaderboard. That brings up two options, you either keep them together in the same leaderboard, or separate them into two visible leaderboards on the main page for Red/Blue.

Here's a probably terrible example of some possible variations that can shake up a leaderboard:

Runner A completes a run with the old route using no IT.
Runner B gets Mega Punch, sets up IT through bridge and again before Misty, maintaining it the entire way.
Runner C goes to Bill without IT, and knows they are unlikely to die to Misty or Rival, and sets up IT before Misty, keeping it through obtaining HM01.
Runner D goes for Mega Punch, sets up IT but loses it due to having to heal on bridge. Goes for it again before Misty but has to heal out of Quick Attack range on the route to Vermilion.

Runner A did not use IT. Runners B, C, and D all used IT for different amounts of time. Assuming everything else in their runs were identical, you're adding in even more variation into the amount of time saved/lost by IT. It's also possible for IT to be outright slower if bridge rival went poorly, for example.

Reminder that using IT isn't 100% guaranteed timesave, it's simply an alternate strategy that has potential to save a lot of time. Would we need to add a leaderboard for IT before bridge and a leaderboard for IT only before Misty? What about a leaderboard for runs that tried to set up IT but had to heal? Should we have leaderboards for runs that used Silph redbar and runs that didn't?

Since there are so many potentially confusing possibilities, I think everything should just stay together in the same leaderboard, with a filter for runs that use IT and runs that don't use IT, assuming IT ends up being allowed.
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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Keizaron » Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:38 pm

I don't think it's as confusing to separate as you're making it out to be. Did you use IT? Yes? Leaderboard A. No? Leaderboard B.

Separating the amount of IT used is equivalent to separating the amount of redbar/yolo drills/insert-anything-measurable used.

This is assuming a split leaderboard, of course.

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Flutz » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:17 pm

In my opinion „don’t like IT? Don’t use IT!” is still the most easy way out, if you argue that you “have to” use IT to get a top time and that makes it less fun because its more reset heavy imagine this example:

blue and red were alike and had the same category “red/blue any% glitchless” but red would be faster due to some risky timesafes/reset heavy strats that only work on red, but the blue strats are not that reset heavy and “more fun”.
you cant say “ban red from the boards cause it’s not fun, I rather run blue and get a good time but as long as red exists I can’t cause I can’t compete with top times” what would you do? Right, make a new category so red runners can run red and blue runners can run blue, so you aren’t obligated to run red (if you like to run blue more for some reason) And evcerybody can be happy and run whatever he/she likes most.

That’s the way for IT as well in my opinion.
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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by ExtraTricky » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:28 pm

Keizaron wrote:
Decon082 wrote:I am fine if there is a different category added for IT-less, and it doesn't really matter to be if IT-less gets more publicity in the end. I just don't think runs that use IT should be completely forgotten just because they use a mechanic that a lot of people don't like.
Reminder that this is voting to ban IT from the current category, with possible future discussion of creating something different out of it. If you want something different/want separation out of it, you should be disagreeing in some manner. Not neutral or agreeing.

Not picking on Decon but this was just a good example is all.

edit: Another reminder that this isn't a discussion on whether it's a glitch or not. While that will obviously come up in people's posts as a sticking point, this isn't agreeing or disagreeing on if it's a glitch, this is either agreeing the category is fine as is, not caring at all (neutral), or disagreeing with its application (and consequently wanting a separation of some sort).

Thanks.
This is confusing. I generally see four options that people suggest:

A) One category called "Any% Glitchless" that allows IT
B) A category called "Any% Glitchless" that allows IT and a category called "Any% Glitchless No IT" that doesn't
C) One category called "Any% Glitchless" that bans IT
D) A category called "Any% Glitchless" that bans IT and a category called "Any% Glitchless With IT" that allows it

The way the thread was introduced, it sounded like A and B are "agree" and C and D are "disagree". My understanding is that Decon was suggesting B.

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by WasabiKnight » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:35 pm

Hey guys,

I decided to make my statement here because I haven't seen anyone tackle the issue from this perspective. So I just wanted to try and add something new to the discussion, hopefully.

My vote is: Neutral
Reasoning (tl;dr): Because Instant Text problem is just like the Poké Doll problem (bare with me and keep reading)

I want to start off by saying I'm mostly on Shenpai and werster's boat, but I think I'm looking at things in a different, more objective way. In my opinion, the Instant Text problem is the same the Poké Doll problem. The keyword here is problem, because they raise exactly the same questions, with the same preoccupations, and even (to an extent) with the same outcomes, regardless of all the "is it a glitch?" or "is it fun?" issues. I mean think about it objectively:
  • One skips a portion of the game, the other speeds up a portion of the game, all with the objective of making everything faster;
  • Both Poké Doll and IT makes the run riskier - Poké Doll skip means less experience, IT means hitting more ranges, etc...;
  • Both aren't clear whether they are glitches/intended since the game doesn't give you an option to have fast text and there was no way to know if you were supposed to be able to skip a portion of the game (albeit this can be backed up with the argument of FireRed/LeafGreen removing Poké Doll skip);
This is just to name a few topics, I think the scenarios are different but the problems and the questions they raise are exactly the same.

So maybe we aren't looking at things the most correct way because we could be looking at this a problem like any other we've had so far, instead of trying to focus exclusively on the situations and outcomes that IT arises, since it's nothing that hasn't been questioned before. It has been more than proven that it's impossible to come in to a conclusion on the debates of whether IT is a glitch or not, and the weighs of luck vs execution (I'm just quoting what's been talked about here, to name a few), and as werster said, it doesn't matter if we spend a day, a week, or a year debating we are just going to end up figuring out that we all have different opinions about it and none of them is objectively better than the other.

In regards to the solutions presented so far I think banning IT is out of the question because, just like the arguments I presented, I think it's not fair to ban IT and not ban Poké Doll since they both raise very similar problems. On the other side of the coin, if we are going to allow IT as a different category I think it's time we adopt no Poké Doll skip as a different category from the leaderboards for the same reason as before. Who knows, maybe this will give us a chance to finally make contact with the Japanese community instead of living in two different islands.

However, I propose we should solve this problem the same way we solved Poké Doll. As far as I know and correct me if I'm wrong, Poké Doll was allowed because the majority of the community just didn't like Rocket Hideout (or whatever reasoning) so it was allowed to use, I propose we solve this the same way here instead of trying to find a definitive conclusion. We are already in the right track since we're already trying to figure out how the community feels about it.

In the end, if the majority of the community thinks IT is cool, then allow it, if not, then ban it. Even though I think this is the most arbitrary outcome, most of Gen 1 is already so arbitrary at this point (as Shen stated) that it doesn't matter anymore. What backs this even further is, just like werster said, that there is no other way you can reach a conclusive outcome because you can't defend or argue against IT (just like Poké Doll) with such a convincing argument that everyone is gonna say you are right.

Edit: I forgot to mention that I voted Netural mostly because whatever outcome that is decided for IT is fine by me.

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Keizaron » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:42 pm

WasabiKnight wrote:As far as I know and correct me if I'm wrong, Poké Doll was allowed because the majority of the community just didn't like Rocket Hideout
w..what?

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by WasabiKnight » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:45 pm

I was just trying to use that as an example, I don't actually know the reasoning, sorry T_T

Cause you know... slow tiles...

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Decon082 » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:52 pm

ExtraTricky wrote:This is confusing. I generally see four options that people suggest:

A) One category called "Any% Glitchless" that allows IT
B) A category called "Any% Glitchless" that allows IT and a category called "Any% Glitchless No IT" that doesn't
C) One category called "Any% Glitchless" that bans IT
D) A category called "Any% Glitchless" that bans IT and a category called "Any% Glitchless With IT" that allows it

The way the thread was introduced, it sounded like A and B are "agree" and C and D are "disagree". My understanding is that Decon was suggesting B.
This exactly, yes.
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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Keizaron » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:55 pm

ExtraTricky wrote:This is confusing.
Then you're overcomplicating it. "this is voting to ban IT from the current category". Quoting Decon may not have been the best choice but the last paragraph he said was a good example to further clarify the purpose of the vote.

(I edited like thrice, my bad)

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by ExtraTricky » Fri Feb 19, 2016 8:19 pm

The confusing statement was
Keizaron wrote:If you want something different/want separation out of it, you should be disagreeing in some manner.
Situation B is arguing for separation, but is agreeing with the question posed in this thread.

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Keizaron » Fri Feb 19, 2016 8:21 pm

ExtraTricky wrote:The confusing statement was
Keizaron wrote:If you want something different/want separation out of it, you should be disagreeing in some manner.
Situation B is arguing for separation, but is agreeing with the question posed in this thread.
Then you are voting agree.

This mistake was made last time IT was discussed, but a decision =/= no more discussion. If the overwhelming majority agree to keep it but want to further discuss things, that's not all of a sudden dead.

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by eddaket » Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:05 pm

My vote: Strongly Agree

My reasoning is basically exactly what Shen said. I'm very much in the mindset recently that you should run what's fun for you. If you don't like IT, don't use it. Other people have said this already, but it's no different than any other risky strat in the game. If you think you can save the time and that it's worth the risk, then go for it. If you think the risk is too high and the run is going to die if you go for it, then don't.

There are people saying that it's too hard to complete a run with IT, but if it's allowed then that's the best way to PB. That sentence just seems flawed to me but maybe it makes sense to other people.

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Randomguy27 » Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:18 pm

Note: I'm not a runner. I'm an outsider who's somewhat familiar with the run, and whose opinion you may or may not care about.

Many people seem to be saying that whether IT is a glitch or not doesn't matter. In that case, shouldn't the run category be renamed? Having "glitchless" as a category is always going to bring up discussion about what is/isn't a glitch, unless the run is simple enough where there's little room for debate. Pokemon is definitely not a simple game, I didn't even know about the badge boost error until today. I, and many people think that skipping the ghost w/ the pokedoll is a glitch, and anyone who feels that way will have their expectations betrayed when they see a run use it.

So, this may be slightly offtopic, but what do you guys think about changing the run name to "any% traditional" or "any% classic" or anything that doesn't have "glitchless" in the name?

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Keizaron » Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:22 pm

That is a discussion that will wait until after a general consensus is met.

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by garrickus » Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:15 pm

As someone who is looking to get back into Red runs after a long hiatus, this entire thing is utterly confusing to me.

My vote, firstly, is to Strongly Disagree

My reasoning is simple, at no other point in the game is anything like this doable. Nothing that remotely resembles IT is supposed to happen in the game, other than this particular setup.

Also, I'm not sure if I'm phrasing this correctly, but it seems to me that things like Redbar happen due to limitations of the hardware at the time, IT is manipulation of the game itself, rather.

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by k3v227 » Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:25 pm

I am largely in the same boat as Tricky, Decon, Wasabi, and Shen on this.

Vote : Strongly Agree

There are three things I would like to discuss here.

-----------------

Category Name

To me the biggest issue here is that the category name is called "Any% Glitchless". As long as this remains then there is no logical reason to ban IT and specifically allow poke doll. This category name has implications as to what is allowed in the run, e.i. "Beat the game as fast as possible without glitches" (http://wiki.pokemonspeedruns.com/index. ... do_here.3F). It would be intellectually unsatisfying to me to ban IT and allow poke doll because having a consistent and well defined category is what makes Any% Glitchless fun and universally popular. A well defined category is the at the core of this discussion whether we are aware of this or not. I don't like the idea of banning something just because you don't like it (example: the church and galileo), but if we decided to ban IT there needs to be reform made to the category.


Competition for top times
Sinstar wrote:The whole, "don't risk IT if you don't want to lose time to it" argument is a terrible one. It saves far far far too much time to ever consider not going for it in a run, regardless of what your PB is. Not going for instant text is just never the better option. For example from my experience a standard Nugget Bridge split with normal strats and no sand attack is around a 7:25-30, ad IT in there and you will get a 7:55 almost every time. About a 30 Second timesave and a very consistent difference.
I specifically disagree with "regardless of what your PB is". You are only obligated to take or not take risks based on your goal time and how behind or ahead you are of reasonable pace for that goal time. So if you are going for a "bad" time (1:52 or worse) you don't always need to take every standard risk. Using yolo as a substitute for practicing essentials like good execution and good decision making is a reprehensible excuse. Using IT while having a goal time of something like 1:55 would be the behavior of a bad speedrunner who misunderstands the concept. Why go for a bad time that is unlikely to finish when you could practice and be more likely to finish with a bitter time? Runners going for 1:52 or worse shouldn't really even be considering IT because it's not needed to get a "bad" time like that.

For example, I didn't use Silph red bar in my 1:53 run because I didn't need to risk it to be on pace for my goal time. If you don't need to risk IT to still on pace for your goal time, then don't use it or take a different risk later. It really is that simple. Gunner didn't need to go for Silph red bar because he risked IT earlier in the run. Had he not used IT earlier in the run he probably would have had to go for Silph red bar. The point is that both are risky strats and, guess what?, they kill a lot of runs :) . If you are going for a top time in red you need extremely unlikely RNG to happen. Yes the "standard" luck shouldn't be hard to get, but there are so many things that need to go well to even finish a run (let along get a "good" time).

That all being said here's the point: Going for WR does seem to obligate runners to use IT per Sinstar's assessment ("It saves far far far too much time to ever consider not going for it in a run"). To me, throwing IT in the mix of standard risks and yolo strats that are used by runners going for WR is almost negligible. Adding a the small amount of bad RNG from IT to the already horribly bad RNG from the rest of the run is essentially the same in the end . No one finishes good runs anyway because all standard strats are run killers. Red itself is the problem. Going for a WR at this point means you have to get a really really fast time to compete and it's just so unlikely to happen. So I think we should look at red for the cancer that it is when you're going for WR and not look at IT is the problem


Lastly, Mt. Moon

As long as Mt. Moon (and route 3 too) is ruining viable runs (god nido + paras = 29 minute moon X_X) before they get to the "fun" part of the run, then IT should not be as demonized as it is by people. A lot of the reason people use IT at all is because the route 3 and especially mt. moon segments get destroyed by stupid RNG and there is nothing that can be done about it. With that in mind, IT and it's varying strats is a tool that can remedy this and potentially make runs viable that would otherwise be dead or have to use some other yolo strat.


Conclusion

It would be nice if we could do something like add repels to the Pewter mart because it would make the run more enjoyable and less rng-heavy run. This would enhance the category but we obviously can't do this or use the crit rom, etc. But there is IT and I think it is undoubtedly not a glitch. It does feel cheap as does using the poke doll. I encourage people to understand the route used by the Japanese community which includes the game corner. After doing this can you say that the game corner is so bad? I don't think anyone could say that the game corner is worse than mt moon. To me a good category wouldn't use IT or the poke doll and would have repels in pewter for mt moon.

Nevertheless hopefully some of this was useful and not just mindless ranting.

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by mumpfel77 » Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:27 pm

eddaket wrote:My vote: Strongly Agree

My reasoning is basically exactly what Shen said. I'm very much in the mindset recently that you should run what's fun for you. If you don't like IT, don't use it. Other people have said this already, but it's no different than any other risky strat in the game. If you think you can save the time and that it's worth the risk, then go for it. If you think the risk is too high and the run is going to die if you go for it, then don't.

There are people saying that it's too hard to complete a run with IT, but if it's allowed then that's the best way to PB. That sentence just seems flawed to me but maybe it makes sense to other people.
I disagree with pretty much every single sentence in your post. I'm gonna try to keep this short because Sinstar already wrote about this the page before.

If you just want to "run what's fun for you", there is no reason to care about the leaderboard in the first place and this whole discussion does not matter. Some runners however, including myself, enjoy the competetive aspect of speedrunning, comparing their time to others, trying to beat them, etc. I'm not sure if you have done any runs with IT eddaket, but I think you are misunderstanding how IT is used in the run. It is not at all comparable to "any other risky strat in the game". If you are trying to be competetive, hence trying to get the best time possible within the ruleset, you will use IT on every single run. There is never a run where it is the correct decision to skip IT, this is not even arguable. For some more arguments read Sinstars post, I don't wanna repeat it all.

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Flutz » Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:05 pm

mumpfel77 wrote:
If you just want to "run what's fun for you", there is no reason to care about the leaderboard in the first place and this whole discussion does not matter. Some runners however, including myself, enjoy the competetive aspect of speedrunning, comparing their time to others, trying to beat them, etc.
I guess that’s a key aspect to the whole discussion because that’s where IT really kicks in. I think many people underestimate the pressure IT can put on your runs when you want to keep going highly competitive and try to get the maximum possible out of the current ruleset (which includes IT grind if its allowed). Higher times can be way more easily achieved with common strats + unrisky/no IT than top times although you might try to grind IT for “maximum timesafe” even if you are going for higher times.

Its like headers were always banned from football, but suddenly the FIFA allows headers. Let’s say you are bad at hitting the ball with your head/don’t want to train this new technique, on a non-competitive level (like playing with friends) it has no big impact cause you play for fun and don’t actually care cause you don’t really need the new headers. On a competitive Level it’s a totally different thing, if you can’t do headers or don’t want to do them for whatever reason you will fall behind your teammates/enemies who want to do it/can do it and the new headers are somewhat necessary for you to keep track of the game and the playstyle which can cost you a lot of fun and motivation (or more).

(not sure if all that makes sense to anyone but me though :D )
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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by luckytyphlosion » Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:09 pm

(Note: this has been written without the knowledge of newer posts, so notify me if someone already had made a point made in my vote)

After reading the discussion, the whole IT situation reminded me of something similar that happened a while back. Specifically, the points which the disagree side had said are reminiscent of Cooltrainer (CT for short)

Firstly, I'd like to state that my opinion is Neutral (to avoid confusion), but that's explained at the bottom of this post.

With that out of the way...

Separator Heading

If you aren't aware, Cooltrainer is a glitch used to catch Pokémon. It was faster than Trainer-Flies a.k.a Mew Glitch, but had a chance of failing proportionate to the Number of Pokemon in the party and the box (as well as other irrelevant technical stuff).

Initially when cooltrainer was found, it was a nice change from T-Flying all the unobtainables/rares. The timesave was pretty nice too, even when factoring in the chance of them not working. Around the same time as the Console/Emulator split, the 151 runners started to become greedy, and piled more and more CTs to obsolete older methods. With the increase of CTs, less and less runs were being completed. Eventually, Cooltrainer became so cancerous that 151 became at a standstill; nobody wanted to do a run because the chances of getting on a good run done was super low.

The interesting part is when LOL Glitch was discovered, around late September/early October 2014. LOL glitch basically functioned like Cooltrainer with a different setup, except it required a save+quit and sometimes extra movement which made it slower. Unlike Cooltrainer, LOL glitch was 100% consistent.

This brings up my main point, where you can analogize Cooltrainer to IT, and LOL glitch to not using IT. I've probably suggested to Shenanagans (the main 151 runner at the time) to switch to LOL glitch because it could allow him to get runs done, with a dismissing of LOL glitch being slower. Shenanagans would explain the amount of time Cooltrainer saved was too much to give up, and a run done without Cooltrainer would be a bad time. In this situation, Shenanagans was pressured to use Cooltrainer, like how many Red runners were pressured to use IT as well.

I wouldn't say it's a perfect analogy; there are plenty of points that separate Cooltrainer from Instant Text, and many more that I didn't write for length concerns. The biggest one was that banning Cooltrainer didn't seem like a rational decision, as it didn't really seem out of place, unlike IT. While I was typing my thoughts in the PSR Discord (in #romhacks), eddaket brought up another point. Quoted from the Discord:
eddaket wrote:"I think the CT thing is a much more extreme example of this. everyone outside of maybe gunner can PB without IT. it's not like a 10 minute difference like CT"

The first point I can't really argue about, other than going on about the pressure of using IT. The second point, relating to the mass timesave that CT brought, is relative to what IT brought to Red. 151 back then wasn't even close to the optimization that Red has today. Saving time was much more lenient in 151, whereas Red's level of optimization is so large that many of the timesaves discovered today are very minor, only saving around X seconds (don't have an exact value here, and I'm not putting one to avoid semantics issues). What I'm trying to say is that the timesave CT brought is relatively the same to the timesave for Red.

The point is, the "don't use IT" argument isn't that easy to apply to actual runs. Some runners may not see this, maybe because of their level of competitiveness (at least how I see it), or maybe for other reasons I haven't thought up of. The two quotes: "Saying something and actually doing it are two very different things" and "Ignorance is bliss" could maybe fit into this point, but they're probably just random thoughts that came to me which felt somewhat relevant to this ramble.

So what's the whole point of this? Going back to the 151 situation, in the end, most of the 151 runners quit and moved onto different categories, at least until a faster glitch than CT was discovered. I could say that's what the people who really don't like IT should do, but it feels wrong to force this upon dedicated Red runners, as well as it being in same boat as "don't use IT" (don't use IT vs don't run the game). It is a good notion that there are other games to run as well, and Red doesn't have to be your main focus.

Opinion: Neutral. I don't even know if I should be holding an opinion on this. One part is because I'm not even a runner, but the main reason is of the general instability of the IT discussion as a whole. The whole IT discussion will probably leave a bad taste in the losing (I really don't like classifying the "ban IT"/"keep IT" runners as sides, but I don't see a better option) sides' mouths; IT being banned would probably stir up more drama, while IT being allowed would leave the anti IT runners at the same state as before. The discussion is nonetheless a good step forward, and I do hope the drama settles down with both sides being satisfied.
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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by joshoneate » Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:18 pm

***Edit: After thinking about this more, I feel the Poke Doll skip should be included no matter what because the use of the skip follows what the item says, escape from a pokemon battle. It is hard to come to conclusions because IT seems so random while the Poke Doll at least makes sense. This makes it very hard to decide. ***

Vote: Neutral

Here are my opinions...

---------------------------------------------------------
Question: Is IT a glitch?
Answer:
Definition of Glitch:
noun
Computers. any error, malfunction, or problem.

Explanation:
The definition is vague, but IT appears to be a malfunction of the way the text boxes work because of a coding oversight.

This is very important to understand when deciding to ban IT from the Any% Glitchless Category.
First, if IT is considered a glitch under this defintion, the Poke Doll would also be considered a glitch, as well as jingle skips, as well as many other problems in the game that affect speedruns that are an oversight by the programmers that caused a malfunction in the intended way the game is supposed to work.
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Question: Should IT be solely banned from the Any% Category and not others?
Answer: It doesn't seem right to single out IT from a category when it is no different than any other oversight in the code that is allowed such as the Poke Doll skip.
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Question: Why is this being discussed now, right after the 1:48 record was achieved?
Answer: It is a disappointment that the community waited until the record was broken to discuss this issue. If there is no difference in the technicality between the Poke Doll glitch and the IT glitch, they should be treated the same. It is unfair to bring up the issue months later after people have put in hours of their time doing world record attempts.
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Question: "IT ruins the fun of speedrunning and therefore should be banned." ?
Answer: A main reason IT is so controversial appears to be because many have expressed their feelings to how IT causes speedruns to feel odd, or that is saves too much time so it should be banned. However, is the category "Any% Glitchless" really going to be defined by how much fun a certain strat is, or whether it is a legitimate run regardless of how much fun it is? This seems to be the main reason people are saying IT should not be allowed, but is it fair to do so?
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Question: What can solve this problem fairly?
Answer: Because the Poke Doll and IT strat are caused due to a coding oversight, why should one be excluded when the other is not? It would be wrong to exclude IT from "Any% Glitchless" and not the Poke Doll skip.

Here are possible solutions that would be fair.
1. Coding oversights such as Poke Doll and IT should both be allowed in "Any% Glitchless"
2. They should be put into their own category [ ex) "Any% No IT", "Any% No Poke Doll", etc...]

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Does IT make it less fun? Possibly, but is the category Any% funless? No.

Summary:
It seems unfair to single out IT from the "Any% Glitchless" while allowing other tricks identical in nature just because they are more fun. All tricks such as IT and Poke Doll should be categorized together, whether this means all current records that use Poke Doll are invalid in the "Any% Glitchless" cateogry, or to allow both IT and Poke Doll into the "Any% Glitchless" category and keeping all current runs valid.

Personally, I have no opinion whether IT is allowed into the "Any% Glitchless" category or if separate categories are made, but I do feel that things like IT and the Poke Doll skip are equal in nature and should be categorized as such regardless of whether one is more fun or not.

***Edit: After thinking about this more, I feel the Poke Doll skip should be included no matter what because the use of the skip follows what the item says, escape from a pokemon battle. It is hard to come to conclusions because IT seems so random while the Poke Doll at least makes sense. This makes it very hard to decide. ***

eddaket
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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by eddaket » Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:59 pm

mumpfel77 wrote:
eddaket wrote:My vote: Strongly Agree

My reasoning is basically exactly what Shen said. I'm very much in the mindset recently that you should run what's fun for you. If you don't like IT, don't use it. Other people have said this already, but it's no different than any other risky strat in the game. If you think you can save the time and that it's worth the risk, then go for it. If you think the risk is too high and the run is going to die if you go for it, then don't.

There are people saying that it's too hard to complete a run with IT, but if it's allowed then that's the best way to PB. That sentence just seems flawed to me but maybe it makes sense to other people.
I disagree with pretty much every single sentence in your post. I'm gonna try to keep this short because Sinstar already wrote about this the page before.

If you just want to "run what's fun for you", there is no reason to care about the leaderboard in the first place and this whole discussion does not matter. Some runners however, including myself, enjoy the competetive aspect of speedrunning, comparing their time to others, trying to beat them, etc. I'm not sure if you have done any runs with IT eddaket, but I think you are misunderstanding how IT is used in the run. It is not at all comparable to "any other risky strat in the game". If you are trying to be competetive, hence trying to get the best time possible within the ruleset, you will use IT on every single run. There is never a run where it is the correct decision to skip IT, this is not even arguable. For some more arguments read Sinstars post, I don't wanna repeat it all.

I guess I didn't word my original post well enough. In trying to understand the "strongly agree" side of things, I basically come across these statements:

If IT is allowed, then PBing is too hard without using IT so I want to use IT. Using IT makes completing a run too hard so I want to ban IT

And that's what makes no sense to me. If it's easier to get a PB with IT, then using IT should be saving you frustration because you'll get a PB sooner. If it's harder to get a PB with IT, then don't use it; it's easier without it. Logically there's really only those two options.

This isn't meant to be a jab at you or anyone else, I'm honestly just trying to understand the argument.

crafted
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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by crafted » Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:59 pm

To me, instant text just looks wrong in a glitchless run.

My vote is: Slightly disagree

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Decon082
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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Decon082 » Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:42 am

Please stop using the words "oversight" and "intended". If you didn't actually have a part in the development of the game, you can't know whether something was "intended" or not. You can't know whether the developers knew about something and either couldn't fix it or didn't think it was important. Please stop using these words when defining what a glitch is. There are other words you can use that have much more meaning and don't make you sound like someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.
I am the person who has ruined Red "Glitchless" forever and seconhandedly, Blue NSC Single Segment too
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Wadiwadum
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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Wadiwadum » Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:59 am

My vote is : Strongly disagree

I was also hyped when I learnt about IT for the routing process and the calculation part of it. Then came the time to play and I first ran without IT every run unless I had terrible Moon so I can feel more the time changes it brings on the table and the range of runs I should or should not reset. And then I found myself taking it a lot of the times and hating that 100% of these runs. I don't think about the glitch/oversight debate because I'm absolutely not qualified enough to judge that and I ended up considering this as a mechanic of the game ; however this mechanic, in my humble opinion, is terribly flawed because it rewards you for nothing execution wise.
As far as decision making it's another problem. It is really demanding to go for MP and the glass canon route and your dv can influence a lot on what variant of IT you'll take. If this was all about reasonnable numbers, why not ? I don't enjoy running with IT but speedrunning is about beating the game right ? But here the possible time save is so huge that at some point if you want to compete with other runners and with Pokémon Red you have to use IT or grind 10 times more (don't get me wrong on that, routing with IT is way more RNG dependant but compared to the luck you need to get a 1:48 without it you'll have to grind less in the long run). The problem, to me, stands in the fact that instant text is influencing the run too much in a way that better execution will not be rewarded so this is why I am against using it.

On a side note I feel bad that this had to wait for somebody to beat WR before all that. What if Exarion had beaten it's own 1:49 using IT ? I could very well see him saying that 1:48 with IT is a worse time than 1:49 without IT speedrunning wise -and I would agree- even though it'd be his own run and we still wouldn't be talking about banning instant text. Because Gunner is not the best red runner out there (he technically is now though) this brings much more attention to this whole thing and I really hope we can use it to make a good decision once and for all after comparing pros and cons.

lost_RD
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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by lost_RD » Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:12 am

Since I'm not a runner I shan't indicate a vote.

That said, remember when "the vast majority of the community agrees this is something that should not be banned"? People have since changed their opinions, it seems, having seen IT used in runs or having used IT themselves. What changed? People had a change to move from an objective point of view to a subjective one. Biases had a chance to creep in, as did burnout and general salt. Does the community really want to let subjectivity overturn objectivity? It seems to and it's disappointing.

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