Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

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werster
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Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by werster » Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:54 am

I've been kind of catching up on the discussion about Instant Text. The feeling I'm getting, and what I'm being told, is that a large number of the people that run (or would run) the game, either think it should be banned, or just straight out don't like it, and additionally think the decision to allow it so quickly was an incorrect one.

Moving on from the latter, whether right or wrong, comes this topic. This will be a forum poll with 5 options given as answers. In order to answer you must respond in this forum with your answer (and possible arguments if you wish)

The question is: Should Instant Text be allowed in Any% Glitchless?
The answers: Strongly agree, Slightly agree, Neutral, Slightly disagree, Strongly disagree.

It is important to distinguish between these as we make a decision moving forward. To be more clear, by agreeing you are saying that you think it should be allowed, by disagreeing you think it should be banned.

In order to vote, you must have a time of 2:10 in the current category rules or lower. This is to prevent people who have no real interest in the community or runs itself from having an impact on decisions. In your post, please make it exceptionally clear what your vote is like so:

My vote is: <vote goes here>

If you wish to change your vote at any time, because you change your mind, or typoed or misread something, please post again with your new vote, do not edit your initial post. This way we can easily see what the votes actually are, and do not have to continue recounting.

To be more clear, this is only a vote on whether Instant Text is banned for Any% Glitchless. Only if it is ruled to be banned, will there then be a possible discussion about making a separate category for "Any% Glitchless with Instant Text". That, at this stage, is not up for discussion (If you think this should be the case, you are voting to ban it here)

To be crystal clear, the decision won't be a simple "If more people agree to ban it, it will be banned", but more that if a significant majority feels one way or the other, that will decide for now. If the feelings are very mixed, then more discussions will need to be had. This is so if one person doesn't see this topic in time, their vote isn't seen as "the decider"

Speaking of time, the time frame on voting on this forum poll will be 1 week, which means voting closes on Feb 26th at 12:00 GMT. This is so the voting can be finished before 3DS VC releases (because we are not exactly certain what can of worms that will unleash). Discussions can go for as long as they continue, and changing your vote will still be available, but making new votes will not be. This is really quite a lax 'rule' however, as if by one week feelings are still overall mixed, the voting system will no longer be the deciding factor anyhow.

On a more personal note in regards to the decisions being made too quickly, I can only speak for myself when I say that decisions are always made quickly whether they are in writing or not. We are always open to discussion, and no ruling on events like this is final. I haven't been involved in running Gen 1 during this time period, but I certainly didn't expect such a huge swing from one side of the coin to the other in such a short space of time once it was discovered. At this time, I would like to personally apologise to Snorms and especially Gunnermaniac, for this topic being brought up so late in the piece now.
Last edited by werster on Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Keizaron » Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:59 am

I would just like to echo werster's regards when it comes to both the decision making and to snorms and Gunner. Including discussion outside of the forum prior to the original thread on Instant Text (which was about a day or two of talking), it felt as though there was sufficient enough time and discussion to warrant a ruling. I personally don't feel as though the decision was terribly rushed, but I digress.

With that in mind, we are taking this topic very seriously and will not tolerate any pointless or trolly posts. If you want your opinion to be valued and considered amongst your peers, act as such.

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Gunnermaniac3 » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:14 am

No need for apology, Werster. I only find it silly that someone getting a decent time was the catalyst for a discussion that people clearly wanted to have. If it was important to the community then it should've happened by now.

That being said, I hope that we can have a well reasoned debate on the direction we want to take on this. At any rate, I think requiring a respectable time for a vote is a good idea. I also hope we can avoid some of the nastiness that came with previous discussions.

And my vote on the matter is officially neutral btw. I think the easiest decision is to make a separate category for no Instant Text, but whether or not that is the best decision...I'm not sure
Last edited by Gunnermaniac3 on Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:18 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by werster » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:15 am

I think lots of peoples answers will boil down to one argument or another. And there are lots you could focus on; "What is a glitch" "How should we decide our rules" "Is this fun?" "Is this centralising?" etc etc.

The former is probably the most important in my opinion, but we could all argue semantics over what a glitch is for ages. So I try to take a more vague approach, does this demonstrate the experience of playing the game, without the use of glitches?

This question is pretty much the same, again you could argue the semantics of what a glitch is, but let's step aside that and focus on playing the game. The main core examples people bring up as comparisons are things that are allowed such as Pokedoll on Marowak, Digging out of buildings, Badge Boost/X Acc applications. All of these things can be broken down into things that make sense as an experience.

You may not speficially have used the Poke Doll on the Marowak, but using the Poke Doll to escape a Wild Pokemon battle makes sense. I know personally when I first saw the application I thought "that's clever", because that's exactly what it is. In regards to digging, I know I always dug out of shit as a kid, the game never made it clear where you can and can't dig, so I just tried wherever it might work (I honestly can't believe people ever bring this up). In regards to Badge Boosts, which are probably the most bizarre, whether anyone likes it or not this was everyone's experience with playing the games. It's just how it works, whether aware of it or not, everyone had this experience.

So I consider the casual viewer who watches. Out of those 3, they are most likely to argue about the Pokedoll (ignoring troll responses), it doesn't line up with their experiences. "If this is glitchless, why are they doing something that isn't how I and everyone I know did things?" But it's easy to explain, oh you just didn't know the Pokedoll works on all wild Pokemon! Even this one. It's a really clever solution to solve this puzzle that they didn't tell you about and might not have even been intended. They may or may not accept your answer, but you can be satisfied that you educated another person on Pokemon speedrunning.

However when it comes to Instant Text you are going out of your way to do something wrong, in order to achieve something the game never meant for you to achieve, that alters in which the game itself is played. If someone questions me on why that is allowed, I can give them some semantic spiel about how it's not ~technically~ a glitch. But I can't feel confident in that, and ultimately I'm painting a very gray picture for the entire run. I can't say "he/shes's wrong", I can only say "his/her opinion is different from mine" and that's a line between people watching and running I never think should be dividing.

I'm sure many others will give their viewpoints as runners, this is how I see it as a viewer.

My vote: Slightly disagree

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Gunnermaniac3 » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:23 am

This whole thing has really brought to light (for me) the unfortunate side of going fast. Version differences, category rulings, and other such abstract/gray areas are the easily biggest turn-off for my favorite way to play games.

I definitely want to hear what everyone has to say on the matter, but I wish it wasn't necessary in *any* speedgames.

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by mumpfel77 » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:30 am

My vote: strongly disagree

I was against IT from the day I found out about it. I guess there are different definitions of what a "glitch" is, but I don't really care if IT technically is a glitch or not. It certainly feels like a glitch, not being able to open your menu without ending the effect is so weird. Now I would probably be okay with it if it would make the route more fun, interesting, etc. Unfortunately exactly the opposite is the case, IT makes it less fun, less skill-based, more luck-dependent and more frustrating. The only thing that I don't like about banning it are the good runs from snorms and gunner, who are kind of getting fucked if we choose to ban it. But both of them are obviously good enough to get good times without IT, hopefully it would motivate and not discourage them.

So yeah, I'm praying to the poke gods that the community will decide to ban it.

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Keizaron » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:44 am

In terms of viewership, I'm gonna have to echo werster again. IT is just an awkward looking thing to see done, and is almost always a hot point on contention in my and many other runners' chats. I don't like going into the glitch versus oversight versus intent terribly much because those arguments always devolve into one person trying to sound smarter than the other and a whole bunch of one-upping.

I can't personally speak on a running standpoint because I've yet to touch it and I don't really have plans to because I don't personally like the looks of the route. While that might make my opinion less weighted than some other runners' opinions, I just disagree with the application in general.

My vote: Slightly disagree

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Shiru666 » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:44 am

My vote is: Strongly disagree.

Instant Text, regardless of being a glitch or not (we already stated out that that's actually offtopic in this case) brought nothing but a dumb timesave that got rid of some cool mechanics in Red, such as fast scrolling, double inputting or just waiting for your Pokémon's cry to access your moves. That just makes a game that was already RNG based more luck based, since half of its execution lies on those three techniques.

Pokémon has always been RNG heavy, that's for sure. But Red has a lot of mechanics and small time saves that just get absolutely devoured by Instant Text. I myself enjoyed pulling off those techniques, but it's not only that: Instant Text, if you want to take out the maximum profit out of it, forces you to not open your menus at all, so healing, switching out or considering a really specific situation is no longer possible, which makes the category something that wasn't before.

I am really angry, however, about the fact that Gunner's time had to be the breaking point to a solution about something that has been bothering the community since the <insert proper term here> got discovered.

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by OU7C4ST » Fri Feb 19, 2016 8:02 am

Some of the examples Werster outlined are in fact what things boil down to for core arguing points.

Mine, I believe that if you aren't simply manipulating the game's code itself, such as the Pokedoll, then it isn't truly a glitch . The Pokedoll does not manipulate the game's code, nor does IT. Using Pokedoll was not intended to skip Marowak's Ghost (this been been proved by the updates in Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen forcing the player to do Celadon Underground). The devs have corrected their oversight in those regards.

So my question lies in the coding itself, and if it is manipulated. To me, and others, a glitch occurs when you manipulate the coding itself within the game. Neither Pokedoll, or Instant Text manipulates or changes the coding within the game in their simplest forms. They are 100% comparable in that aspect. So to break it down to that point, we must return to the argument in it's entirety. Which would be if we allow one, we must allow the other.

Also, this quote, "However when it comes to Instant Text you are going out of your way to do something wrong". I guess I always look away when the streamer is partaking in the Casino Underground section of the storyline. Kappa

My vote: Slightly Agree

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by jazzychoi1991 » Fri Feb 19, 2016 8:20 am

My vote is: Strongly Disagree

My only concern is that something like this should have been brought up sooner since it is hugely unfair on Gunner.

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by ExtraTricky » Fri Feb 19, 2016 8:21 am

My vote: Slightly agree

I said a good amount in the other thread about why I don't consider instant text a glitch, so I won't repeat that. Plus, the category has been "glitchless" (with scare quotes) to me since before instant text. I have long felt that if viewers knew about or saw the badge boost bug, then they would consider it a glitch. There are plenty of things in the route that I feel could be considered as "going out of the way to do something wrong" because it's faster (intentionally ignoring pokedoll in this list). Sure, the effects of instant text last longer, but I don't believe that that should be a consideration for whether something is banned.

* Stop looking in the grass when trying to get a particular encounter.
* If the first Surge switch is in the top left can, check the top left can again.
* Use an XSpecial in order to outspeed Viridan rival's Alakazam.
* Go to a warp pad in Sabrina's gym before digging.

The segment of the run with instant text has become one of my favorite parts, possibly even straight up my favorite part, because the game becomes much more action-packed instead of waiting for textboxes to clear. I understand that a lot of runners feel that instant text removes a lot of the decision making due to losing it if you switch or use items. I don't agree with that description. You still have the option to switch or use items, but it is now a larger cost if you do. Plus there's new aspects: How do you decide between getting mega punch or not? Does that choice change with spearow vs pidgey?

Thinking over my attempts again, while there's undoubtedly a higher chance to die on the IT segments than before, I wouldn't be surprised if the time variance is actually significantly lower. For example, getting sand attacked on nugget bridge with IT costs you less time because the miss turns go so fast. And I think there's still a much lower chance to die on those segments than pretty much any other risky fight in the game, of which there are a lot.

The reason that my vote is "slightly" and not "strongly" is that I made a promise to myself that if I came back to red that I would be using rules that made sense to me. These included doing runs on console only (even if the community decides to re-allow emulator for WR, all my runs will still be on console) and using real time that includes both the intro sequence and hall of fame (mainly based on my experience "tying" my PB 3 times before "beating" it). What the community decides doesn't affect me too much. I've wanted to do Japanese text with both pokedoll and instant text for a while, and so if IT ends up being banned from the standard English category, I'll probably just focus more on that.

The main effect that this decision does have on me is that we've had discussions of submitting a race for SGDQ, and it's clear to me that any submitted race should be the standard category, whichever way that ends up being. I believe that I'll have more fun if instant text is included.

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by snorms » Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:01 am

My vote: Strongly Agree

I personally believe that this decision should be based solely on whether instant text comes under the category of a glitch or not. This has already been discussed by multiple other runners and was previously stated in the initial forum post regarding this topic a few months ago, so I won't go into that any further.

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Sinstar » Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:54 am

Two words: Sand Attack

My vote: Strongly Disagree
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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Amoeba » Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:55 pm

I hope no one is judging anyone who was part of the original decision to allow IT, its by far a difficult judgenent to make and i think they did everything possible to support the community and make a choice that represented the community. If people are annoyed at the decision because a good time was set with it, these issues should have been brought up before good times were set.

Anyway.

My vote: Strongly Agree

Apologies for typos/incoherencies, im on my phone atm.
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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by tyrant14 » Fri Feb 19, 2016 1:29 pm

My vote: Strongly Disagree

Unfortunately I haven't really cared for gen 1 that much to give my opinion on it but I have watched many Red runs that use it and runs that don't use it. And coming from a viewer standpoint it looks weird seeing it be done in a run and it doesn't accomplish anything for the "story's" sake.

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Flutz » Fri Feb 19, 2016 2:08 pm

My vote: slightly disagree

(sry for wall of text and bad England, some phrases may sound weird)

I stated before, that my opinion is neutral due to the fact, that I enjoy the game with and without IT and I don’t see any disadvantages on the fun side of the run (Tricky put this into words quite nicely).

Also, in my opinion, the discussion about IT being a glitch or not shouldn’t be the main reason to ban it or allow it, because we already know that this mostly comes down to semantics and we have an “equal” “glitch”/”oversight”/”whatever” we have made a decision on before (Pokedoll) which should be reason enough to handle both alike.

The reason I changed my opinion from neutral to slightly disagree is, that I think it would make the most sense to ban IT in any% glitchless and make an any% IT category due to the fact, that it won’t be possible to make a decision everyone agrees on and I think, that a topic discussed this furiously is worth of getting recognition even if a vast majority wants to ban it from the main glitchless category.

Most of all I think, that this decision is the best way to provide at least some respect to the good times achieved with IT (mostly gunner and snorms) and is the most harmless way to stop this never ending discussion, also I think it would be pretty sad to never see IT again if it gets banned form the glitchless category, so there should be a way to still use it and get recognition for it.

I know there are people arguing that it’s not necessary or even dumb to provide a new category for IT to the leaderboard, but I actually can’t see any disadvantages to the speedruns, the community or anything. An IT category would surely be different from all the other categories on the leaderboard which are, right now, divided by major differences of glitch using and the goal of the run. But IT still has a huge impact on the run providing a major timesafe which separates it from other runs. I know pokedoll is taking the same line and we need to make it an own category too if we make a new category for IT.
My idea basically was adding a “Japanese strats” category without IT + pokedoll and the “any% IT” category for people wanting to run IT if it gets banned.

This idea will surely meet with resistance, but id like to say something to the most common reasons to disagree with these new categories.

1. People may say the Leaderboard will get to confusing, it will get to full, and everything could be a new category then. But in my opinion IT and pokedoll are pretty different from any other argument about new categories not relying on another goal or major glitch using, both in intensity and reasonableness. There are just too many arguments and opinions about it to try to avoid the option of using/not using it by banning the other one completely. I think IT and pokedoll would and definitely should be the only exceptions for new categories due to their impact. Also it’s pretty unlikely that there’s another undiscovered “oversight” with an impact this heavy to be even be considered of getting an own category. Most of all 2 more categories don’t hurt anyone, the runners get the recognition they deserve even if their opinions are different and there’s no reason to widen the exception made for IT and pokedoll so the leaderboard has a chance of getting “flooded with categories”.

2. Some may say “why don’t you make a no pokedoll but IT category then?” in my opinion that makes no sense because I neither see anyone wanting to run this, nor did anybody ever put this discussion on the line and someone who disagrees on pokedoll most likely also disagrees on IT.

3. “why don’t we make emulator/no emulator a category then?” this is easily answered with the decision made by the whole community of speedruns, the way emulators are handled on the leaderboard works out perfectly fine in every speedrunning community. The only argument is if we allow emulators to be allowed for world record or not but this doesn’t make it necessary to make a new category for emulators because that’s a hardware/software discussion and doesn’t have impact on playstyle, routes, glitches, etc. therefor it doesn’t deserve a category.

To put it in a nutshell I recommend, that the possibility of IT getting an own category is genuinely put in consideration if it gets banned, that’s why my vote is “slightly disagree”.
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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by HorouIchigo » Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:08 pm

My vote: Strongly disagree

I was all in on the IT hype train when it was first discovered, and I still think there's just not a good enough reason to ban it. But the fact is simple: IT is just shit. It's not fun, not skillful, not interesting, and it's borderline glitchy. Most people feel miserable when doing it and not only adds a LOT more RNG into the game, it does it on the already extremly RNG-heavy part of the game. The fact that now not only you have to get less Mt. Moon encounters while walking MORE steps on Moon (unless you're doing sanity preserving strats, and not full balls to the wall yolo MP route), while everyone loves grinding for less moon encounters, cause Mt Moon is great, but you have to:
a) basically reset for god stats to be able to be underleveled while still killing everything on bridge
b) catch a paras or lose more than a minute (added to the time loss of getting oddish on the normal route)
c) risk an insanely hard fight (Rocket) after having to not have too many encounters and paras
d) hit multiple 80% accurate moves (although the misses are fast, you can legit miss enough times that you run out of PP, not to mention Mega Punch is a range on many pokemons with bad attack, which makes a) more important
e) risk way more dying to nugget bridge (unlike what tricky said, the problem isn't the time loss missing when you get sand-attack, the problem is you just straight die, maybe not on the rival, but over the bridge. If you get SA'd T1 on pidgeotto, the run is basically over. We could go onto the the argument that you CAN heal, but let's be real, no one will.)
f) eschew good execution to just mindless mashing (instead of buffering inputs, canceling lvl up text by holding B, you get to mash A for a while. You can say that good mashing is also good execution, but the fact is that high level play of red appeals so many people because it has a bunch of really tight execution and menuing tricks that makes the runner feel very clever while being fast AND looking clean, and that's awesome, even tho' that they're simple and easy to do)

All these things just make for a grindfest, not particularly interesting, definately super frustrating, and not particularly execution based.
That was my experience doing IT: i tried pretty much all the strats that we came up with, and grinded for a total of about 50 hours, didn't get to misty once. You can argue that's not too much time, and I guess it's not a lot, but I was only resetting deaths, and boy did I get a lot of them.
My actual position regarding IT is that we should make different categories just because there's no reason to ban it completely, but there's enough interest from enough people to do IT-less runs that it would be a reasonable solution imo.
Timing to do this is complete shit tbh, but better now than when there's a lot more top times with IT. Purge IT.
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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by DralZx » Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:23 pm

I guess my opinion doesn't count for much, but I'll throw my thoughts in anyway.

I think that this really does just come down to what is a glitch or what is a bug? For me, it's anything that wasn't intended by the developers original design or implementation. It's my job to find bugs and report them to the development team so they can be fixed, if I found something like instant text I can guarantee I'd report it and guarantee it would be fixed. As far as I'm concerned it's a bug (glitch) no question. No it isn't breaking the game, it doesn't allow you to manipulate values etc, but it is causing the game to do something that the developers didn't want to happen and in the context of speedrunning it's saving time.

I'm not gonna say I'm an authority, or my word is definitive, that would be dumb. This is just my take on things. People will obviously have different opinions and that's what this discussion is for. Regardless of what the outcome is there will always be people that are happy and unhappy, but I think the important thing is that we uphold the integrity of the category and of Pokemon Speedrunning as a whole.

My vote: Strongly disagree
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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Sylarclone » Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:46 pm

My vote: Neutral

While I have been part of the community for a short time it has been interesting to see how the thoughts and feelings surrounding IT have developed. After seeing the reactions yesterday it reminded me a lot of my experiences swimming (I promise this has a point). There was a time in competitive swimming where athletes could wear full body suits at meets which helped, in theory, make them faster and they did. World records were being broken left and right by athletes in the suits but they have since been banned. The ban did not come from the amount of good times that were being posted but rather from the fact that some athletes would wear multiples of these suits and abusing what the suits were capable of doing.

Now how does this relate to IT? Much like the swimming suits, one can choose to use IT or not. Just because you can use something does not mean you are required to. Good times can still be made with and without IT. IT does seem to make a bad run amazing (imo). This is a small part of one section of the game. If we had access to IT in other parts of the game, then the discussion might go quite a bit different. IT can be lost just as quickly as it is gained. All that IT seems to add is more risk and RNG to a game that already has quite a bit of those things, as many have already stated. In the end the decision comes down to the runner.

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by jussimon » Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:34 pm

my vote: Strongly disagree

I'll keep it short and simple. My opinion hasnt changed since the last discussion despite using IT in most of my own attempts.
(Make IT a sub/misc/whatever-category so the good IT times dont just vanish from the leaderboards.)

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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Shenanagans » Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:48 pm

To begin, I am 100% under the opinion that IT is not a glitch. There is no difference between the method used to gain Instant Text speed and many of the other borderline glitches that we use in the glitchless route (Pokedoll Skip, Dsum, Badge Boost Abuse, ect). I think the issue here is that a lot of runners are mixing up what is fun and what is a glitch. This brings up the question of can non glitches be banned simply because they are dumb.

We have this same issue to a larger degree in the Catch 'em All category because of a glitch we're calling LWA. It allows you to catch every pokemon in 12 seconds, so you just get underflow and use LWA to catch 148 pokemon (you use pidgey, bulba, and abra to setup Underflow). The Catch 'em All community decided to ban this glitch because it makes the category trivial (it saves about 45 minutes).

If the glitchless community at large wants to ban IT because it makes the category less fun, that's fine but it seems somewhat arbitrary (as all of gen 1 tends to be anyways). Imagine if people banned Nidoking in the glitchless run because squirtle route was more fun.

That aside, Most of the arguments so far have been about how it makes the bridge segment worse, but that's just the nature of going for faster times. Silph Rival Redbar, Yolo Lorelai, and many other super risky strategies have become a part of the Glitchless route in order to save time by adding risk. Instant text on bridge fills this same purpose, take risk = save time, it just happens to appear earlier in the run when it is more difficult to determine the amount of time you need to save to drop the full minute needed to PB.
Shiru666 wrote:got rid of some cool mechanics in Red, such as fast scrolling, double inputting or just waiting for your Pokémon's cry to access your moves. That just makes a game that was already RNG based more luck based, since half of its execution lies on those three techniques
Instant text brings about a new type of strategy, and that is the strategy of determining how much risk you want to take in order to save time. Do you want to yolo the entire bridge --> bill segment? Do you want to teach thrash as soon as you hit 21? Do you want to take IT into the misty fight? Do you want to get Oddish on route 25 to have better IT on the Surge segment? In this case IT does in fact require skill, but its the routing skill rather then the menuing skill.
Sinstar wrote:Two words: Sand Attack
Then don't risk IT. If you're on 1:48:45 pace you wouldn't risk yolo lorelai so if you don't feel the need to risk something then don't use it.
tyrant14 wrote:coming from a viewer standpoint it looks weird seeing it be done in a run and it doesn't accomplish anything for the "story's" sake.
So does pokedoll skip, or using xspecials to outspeed pokemon, but those are totally fine. I agree it looks really bad, but we allow other bad looking things so why are we banning this?
HorouIchigo wrote:But the fact is simple: IT is just shit. It's not fun, not skillful, not interesting, and it's borderline glitchy. Most people feel miserable when doing it and not only adds a LOT more RNG into the game
Fun is an arguable term, I like IT because it is interesting and fast.

Not skillful is plain wrong. You have to understand how to determine how much risk to take using IT (you can heal/candy/ect any time). People always argue that you have to full yolo with IT but that simply isn't the case. People still buy xaccs despite yolodrilling every fight being faster. Risk is fast in moderation.

Adds a lot more RNG to the game, Thats generally a part of all the risky strats we do. People dont heal before the Blackbelt in Giovanni's gym despite that adding a lot more RNG to the game.
mumpfel77 wrote:Now I would probably be okay with it if it would make the route more fun, interesting, etc. Unfortunately exactly the opposite is the case, IT makes it less fun, less skill-based, more luck-dependent and more frustrating.
I think using horndrill for fights is boring because it makes the game too easy. Can we make a poll to ban it?

In Conclusion

These have all been arguments for why IT makes glitchless less fun or harder. If you don't want to risk IT then don't use it. I won't yolo Lorelai if I'm on PB pace. I won't yolo drill Gyara to avoid healing if I'm on 1:51:30 pace. So much of Gen 1 has become mitigating risk to achieve 1 minute PBs and IT can be a risk to help push you above that threshold.

I honestly believe it is fine for communities to ban things that make categories dumb, so if IT falls under that then a ban is ok. I dont use IT, so I can't speak for it being a run killer. I think IT is super dumb, I really wish it didn't exist, but I do not see it as a glitch so I will not be calling for a ban.

My Vote: Neutral

EDIT:
Keizaron wrote: edit: Another reminder that this isn't a discussion on whether it's a glitch or not. While that will obviously come up in people's posts as a sticking point, this isn't agreeing or disagreeing on if it's a glitch, this is either agreeing the category is fine as is, not caring at all (neutral), or disagreeing with its application (and consequently wanting a separation of some sort).
Thanks.
Because this is no longer about IT being a glitch, but just being bad for the category I will be changing my vote from Strongly Agree to Neutral. I don't use IT so I have no opinion on how bad it can be.
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Swaph_
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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Swaph_ » Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:54 pm

My Vote: Strongly Agree

There was plenty of time and thought, by several leaders of the community, before IT was allowed. Why is this discussion happening now that Gunner got a 1:48? Why not sooner? I can't stress enough that this conversation should have taken place MONTHS ago. If it had, I would be more in favor of a separate category.

I respect whatever the community decides, but let's pick something and stick with it please.

*EDITED 1. to bold my vote 2. to remove stupid question
Last edited by Swaph_ on Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Decon082
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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Decon082 » Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:00 pm

IT is silly. Most of the arguments are even sillier. Does it add more RNG to an already RNG-based game? Yes, but what does it matter? A normal run can execute everything perfectly and still die to Misty or Lance. A perfectly-executed and perfect luck IT run can still die to Misty or Lance. You can still lose 3 minutes to cans either way. RNG always has been a part of the game and always will be. (unless gen 1 RNG manip is found OpieOP )

I haven't even ran the game since IT was found, but I was part of the initial routing and spent a lot of time in the early discussions. And I think the biggest thing people are forgetting is that full yolo IT isn't the best option in all circumstances. There is still a lot of strategy and planning in the early part of the game with IT if you want to determine which route has the most balance between safety and timesave. How is this any different than when pre-IT runs would balance between getting Water Gun and fighting Hiker, skipping Water Gun and killing Zubats, or skipping everything altogether and going in at level 17 for Pidgeotto? Sure, the full yolo IT route may introduce more RNG, but there are other IT routing options that make the run safer and still allow for timesave over the IT-less route.

And while just saying "you can't get WR anymore without IT" may be true soon, really what does World Record mean? In my opinion, it should simply be a display of the fastest run anyone has managed to complete, using the fastest strategies available at the time. If you don't like IT, you don't have to use it, and if you have any mindset about not being able to get WR anymore then you should really give that up. This is a community, and to outsiders it should really be more focused not about who gets the fastest runs, but that there are fast runs out there to be shown off.

With that being said, I am fine if there is a different category added for IT-less, and it doesn't really matter to be if IT-less gets more publicity in the end. I just don't think runs that use IT should be completely forgotten just because they use a mechanic that a lot of people don't like. They're still good runs and they should be accepted as such.

My vote: Strongly Agree
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Keizaron
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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Keizaron » Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:03 pm

Decon082 wrote:I am fine if there is a different category added for IT-less, and it doesn't really matter to be if IT-less gets more publicity in the end. I just don't think runs that use IT should be completely forgotten just because they use a mechanic that a lot of people don't like.
Reminder that this is voting to ban IT from the current category, with possible future discussion of creating something different out of it. If you want something different/want separation out of it, you should be disagreeing in some manner. Not neutral or agreeing.

Not picking on Decon but this was just a good example is all.

edit: Another reminder that this isn't a discussion on whether it's a glitch or not. While that will obviously come up in people's posts as a sticking point, this isn't agreeing or disagreeing on if it's a glitch, this is either agreeing the category is fine as is, not caring at all (neutral), or disagreeing with its application (and consequently wanting a separation of some sort).

Thanks.

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Sinstar
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Re: Poll: Revisiting Instant Text Ruling for Any% Glitchless

Post by Sinstar » Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:32 pm

Shenanagans wrote:That aside, Most of the arguments so far have been about how it makes the bridge segment worse, but that's just the nature of going for faster times. Silph Rival Redbar, Yolo Lorelai, and many other super risky strategies have become a part of the Glitchless route in order to save time by adding risk. Instant text on bridge fills this same purpose, take risk = save time, it just happens to appear earlier in the run when it is more difficult to determine the amount of time you need to save to drop the full minute needed to PB.
Sinstar wrote:Two words: Sand Attack
Then don't risk IT. If you're on 1:48:45 pace you wouldn't risk yolo lorelai so if you don't feel the need to risk something then don't use it.
The whole, "don't risk IT if you don't want to lose time to it" argument is a terrible one. It saves far far far too much time to ever consider not going for it in a run, regardless of what your PB is. Not going for instant text is just never the better option. For example from my experience a standard Nugget Bridge split with normal strats and no sand attack is around a 7:25-30, ad IT in there and you will get a 7:55 almost every time. About a 30 Second timesave and a very consistent difference. The issue comes when you get multiple sand attacks early on bridge to the point where you have to heal/switch out (assuming you make the correct play and don't play for the <1% chance of staying alive with IT and redbar HP after rival). The bridge split with a heal then becomes somewhere around 7:40 with the IT route, basically identical to what you might get without IT, a 7:40. Therein lies the problem, Instant Text is always worth it, arbitrarily saves time if you don't get sand attack, and adds a 1 minute timeloss to every run that gets bad sand rng, there are no added decisions because in this situation the chance of the YOLO working is so low that it's never worth going for, and as a (possibly now former) runner who just wants a clean run of the game that is also competitive with the OFFICIAL ruleset, I believe achieving this task would be far more rewarding and less frustrating without this needless extra variable that decreases the chance of a run finishing on good pace. And don't even get me started on having to yolo through sand attack on Anne Rival, (another point where switching out only costs 10s without IT, but costs 30 with it).
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