Leaderboards (Romhacks/Other Categories)

Discuss policy guidelines for the community and whether something needs to be changed or not.
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tyrant14
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Leaderboards (Romhacks/Other Categories)

Post by tyrant14 » Mon Jan 18, 2016 4:52 pm

I saw the discussion for romhacks added to the leaderboards on discord and Ill let other discuss that but my concern ties into that and I don't see the need for two seperate threads so they can both be discussed in one.

My concern is the fact that the only reason a category doesn't get added to the leaderboards is because there are "no runners." I get it that you also want to keep leaderboards clean but it shouldn't keep away legitimate categories. For example Round 2 for Platinum I see as a category but doesn't get added because of having no runners. (There are 2 now, hope is coming). But we have categories like Challenge Mode, Stadium 1 Complete Game, and Stadium 2 Complete Game with 1 runner.

I am not disagreeing with those categories being there because I think they should be but that they are there because of having 1 runner. My issue is that there won't be more runners for say Round 2 because nobody knows it exists. (The other runner has done it because of me). So it becomes a thing of well it can't be there because there aren't runners but nobody runs it because they don't know it's there/exists. And people do look on the leaderboards for their source of information. Just using Platinum for example, my 3:57 and 3:56 time came within a few days of each other and both are on YouTube. The 3:57 is on the leaderboards and has 415 views. My 3:56 however is the better time but only has 36 views. No one knows that the best time for Platinum is 3:56 because they only go by what they see on the leaderboards. So by having the category there gains exposure to it and perhaps nets more runners. (And this would apply to any new category) The only other way for a category to gain exposure is having someone popular (like werster or gunner) run it, otherwise no one would know about it. That's just my opinion, just wanted to get it out there.

And this would apply for romhacks with few runners as well or romhacks in general.

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Re: Leaderboards (Romhacks/Other Categories)

Post by Keizaron » Mon Jan 18, 2016 5:15 pm

The issue of amount of runners has only ever really pertained to whether it's miscellaneous or primary category. Just FYI.

edit: and even then, that's more of a guideline and not a 100% set rule.

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Amoeba
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Re: Leaderboards (Romhacks/Other Categories)

Post by Amoeba » Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:36 pm

Some kind of psr.com submission form for potential new categories would be useful. Have moderators of the particular game, along with leaderboard admins and site admins discuss adding them in.
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Re: Leaderboards (Romhacks/Other Categories)

Post by Keizaron » Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:56 pm

Could always just make a thread similar to the leaderboard moderator submission thread, I suppose.

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Re: Leaderboards (Romhacks/Other Categories)

Post by Shenanagans » Mon Jan 18, 2016 11:42 pm

This is a pretty much exactly how I feel Tyrant. I feel like if a category meets a major goal, then it could be discussed by the community to be added to the leaderboards.

The only major issue would be Leaderboard clutter (We could argue that there are multiple runners for various silly gen 1 categories: RBA, NSC no uflow, 151 No Uflow, 151 no restrictions, 150 coop, 124 glitchless, ect, and it would be very silly to add all of these).
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Amoeba
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Re: Leaderboards (Romhacks/Other Categories)

Post by Amoeba » Tue Jan 19, 2016 12:00 am

Yeah, a thread would work too, probably much easier to set up.

(As an aside, I don't have too strong feelings about this, but I do feel that a category having little or no runners should be a large factor in whether it gets a leaderboard or not.)
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Re: Leaderboards (Romhacks/Other Categories)

Post by entrpntr » Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:16 am

So apparently there's an old category guidelines page on the wiki that talks about some of this stuff.

My opinion is that we could definitely benefit from having more miscellaneous categories on the leaderboards, and I agree that right now there is a decent amount of friction to get a category added (unless you're a speedrun.com mod). It is fairly obvious that simply having a category represented on the leaderboards results in people paying a lot more attention to the category, so this frustration is pretty understandable. Having a dedicated process like a discussion thread for proposed categories would be a good way to fix that. (***EDIT: If we go this route, I'd suggest at a minimum requiring that (1) the person proposing the category has completed a run, (2) there is evidence of significant routing effort — casual playthroughs don't count.)

At the same time, speedrun.com hosts our official leaderboards, so we should be wary of the precedent we set when adding categories. There are innumerable Pokémon ROMhacks, so I think it is a bad idea to put them on speedrun.com (unless they meet some bar for competitiveness). I would say the same thing for categories that have questionable goals that are generally applicable across the main series games, like most catch-em-"all" glitchless, Round 2, or different main Pokémon categories. As a default, I think misc categories should have logical/meaningful goals and diverge significantly from the main categories. This would likely rule out all the categories Shen mentioned (except 150 co-op, which is an okay enough misc category for my sensibilities).

I also think it would be a good idea to publicize the Challenge% page on the wiki (previous discussion) to stir up activity again. This could be a good staging ground to increase exposure/competition for ROMhacks and the extremely arbitrary/silly categories that don't meet the threshold for the official leaderboards. If certain categories start to become sufficiently popular, they would be good candidates to be moved to miscellaneous categories on the official leaderboards; I don't know how we'd go about determining that, but as an example, werster mentioned in a previous thread that Spinda% would have been a fine miscellaneous category when it was at its peak popularity.

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Re: Leaderboards (Romhacks/Other Categories)

Post by Dabomstew » Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:12 pm

gifvex has brought up a proposition in the discord chat regarding a possible compromise for ROM hack boards on the forums and after a small amount of thought I've decided that it would be a good idea to try.

The idea involves a board being made on these forums where 1 topic = 1 challenge category/romhack. The topic OP contains leaderboard (so topic starter is "the mod") and topic posts are discussion & submissions. (mostly gifvex's words in his message, slightly modified)

My current proposition is that this board will be made once 2 people (or 1 person with 2 boards) contact me on here or Discord with the proposed initial contents of a topic to be made in that forum (aka the leaderboard for a particular ROMhack/challenge category). These should contain at least 3* runs each, to prove that there is real interest. (I don't care about how the runs are timed and what the specific rules are as long as they are consistent between the runs on the board)

Once this criterion is met, I will make the board and we'll see how it goes.

* Note that the board itself will not necessarily require a minimum number of runs per topic (well, more than 1 anyway) - this is just a means of judging real interest in it being made to begin with. Topics may be removed if they stay unchanged with only 1 run for a very long time though, exact time to be determined.

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Re: Leaderboards (Romhacks/Other Categories)

Post by Keizaron » Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:23 pm

As an aside, remember this is a trial of sorts, and doesn't necessarily mean we will facilitate a speedrun.com transition for this stuff. This is very much in the alpha stage.

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Re: Leaderboards (Romhacks/Other Categories)

Post by golderzoa333 » Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:13 am

Well As A runner i'll do my best to provide times as well for these Romhacks/other categories!

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