Bike Shop Instant Text Discussion/Ruling

Discuss policy guidelines for the community and whether something needs to be changed or not.
Keizaron
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Re: Bike Shop Instant Text Discussion/Ruling

Post by Keizaron » Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:10 am

After discussing it both publicly and amongst the staff, we've come to the conclusion that this IS allowed. It's clear that while there are varying degrees of opinion, the vast majority of the community agrees this is something that should not be banned. The temporary ban on the rule has been lifted and runs may immediately begin incorporating this new strategy.

I want to thank everybody for the very civil and informative discussions.

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Re: Bike Shop Instant Text Discussion/Ruling

Post by entrpntr » Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:10 am

ExtraTricky wrote:I don't know the history here, but it's also possible that Pewter Gym skip was not part of the category because runs were done single segment and using in-game time. (Currently, even if it was not banned as a glitch you'd be unable to do it because of the single-segment rule). Does anyone know what the reason was (or maybe both?)?
Can't say for sure, but if you look at the standard category rules here, I don't see a technical reason why you couldn't submit a segmented, no major skips run (or no "large-skip glitches" as it's called on the game page). Pewter Gym skip probably wouldn't be used even if it was allowed, but that doesn't mean it's still not game-breaking in nature.
Keizaron wrote:There are no plans to make two leaderboards. At that point, category separation begins to look arbitrary and avoids the simplicity that we (I?) strive for on the leaderboards. With all due respect to the Mario community, we don't need 0 Star/1 Star/16 Star/69 Star/420 Star style categories. The most likely outcome is the current leaderboard just adapts the instant text.
SM64 categories are WAY less arbitrary than Red/Blue leaderboards imho. Sure, Red/Blue only has 2 official categories, but the second is Catch Em All, which is arbitrary as fuck and proud of it (***EDIT: referring to the ruleset). (And in case anyone is not aware, 0 Star = any%, 70 star = any% no major skips, 120 star = 100%. 16 star = any% no side BLJ and 1 star = any% no DDD skip. The number of stars is a more clean & natural demarcation of the amount of content skipped than anything in Red/Blue. The co-existence of 0, 1, and 16 star categories represent the evolution of the fastest known any% route, and can all be justified by the long-established SDA criteria that "particularly game-breaking glitches or skips [may be deemed to] deserve a category of their own").

Sorry if this is too much of a tangent (especially since it looks like a ruling has been made), but if the goal is to create simple and non-arbitrary categories, the current leaderboards don't really reflect that in my view. Not that there's anything wrong with that necessarily; 151 is interesting as a glitch showcase with a simple & organic enough 'full completion' goal, but it was never clear to me what distinguished it enough to make it an official category.
Last edited by entrpntr on Fri Nov 06, 2015 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

Keizaron
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Re: Bike Shop Instant Text Discussion/Ruling

Post by Keizaron » Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:17 am

entrpntr wrote:Sorry if this is too much of a tangent.
You're going on a tangent.

Edit:

"tell him to spend more time optimizing crystal and less time on arguments :) " - Anonymous, 2015

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Re: Bike Shop Instant Text Discussion/Ruling

Post by entrpntr » Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:05 am

Keizaron wrote:You're going on a tangent.
Well, apologies for the indiscretion. Returning to matters more directly related to Bike Shop Instant Text ...
Keizaron wrote:Edit:

"tell him to spend more time optimizing crystal and less time on arguments :) " - Anonymous, 2015
Arguing this matter seemed to be a clear categorical imperative (do you see what I did there?) to move the discussion forward. Now that there's an a official ruling, how could the routing priority of anyone with a conscience be directed towards anything but Squirtorino, which almost certainly just reaped a significant timesave vs the incumbent Nidoking route?

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Re: Bike Shop Instant Text Discussion/Ruling

Post by Keizaron » Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:18 am

entrpntr wrote: Now that there's an a official ruling, how could the routing priority of anyone with a conscience be directed towards anything but Squirtorino, which almost certainly just reaped a significant timesave vs the incumbent Nidoking route?
Have fun.

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Re: Bike Shop Instant Text Discussion/Ruling

Post by mumpfel77 » Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:47 pm

After watching Exarion's stream and reading through a few of the posts here, I absolutely hate this change. I actually thought Exarion is trolling with this route, until someone linked this thread. In my opinion this is clearly a glitch, and even though we might use a few glitches already in the glitchless route, why would we add more? Also it makes the route just less fun, more rng dependent, more frustrating. From watching Exarion I understand that Mt. Moon is now longer (= more RNG), you use Mega Punch (= more RNG, everyone who has ever used Squirtle Route hates Mega Punch), getting Paras is more important (or even necessary idk?), you need better Nidoran DVs (= more early game resets). This is just what I've gathered from watching Exarion, so there are probably some more differences than that.

So with my limited knowledge, from what I understand we introduced a glitch into the glitchless route which makes the route worse/less fun. I'm sure at some point I will be motivated again to do some runs and I would really hate doing this route. I still feel like I'm getting trolled, how is this allowed :D

jussimon
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Re: Bike Shop Instant Text Discussion/Ruling

Post by jussimon » Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:09 pm

I dont think this should be allowed but whatever. If people are willing to sacrifice their mental sanity needed for the added amount of RNG this route/run/whatever seems to require all i can say is good luck and dont kill yourselves

Keizaron
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Re: Bike Shop Instant Text Discussion/Ruling

Post by Keizaron » Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:50 pm

Just FYI to mumpfel and jussi, two things.

One, you don't have to use the instant text. Just because something is allowed doesn't mean you have to use it.

Two, I'm not a fan of it either, but this definitely isn't a glitch.

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Re: Bike Shop Instant Text Discussion/Ruling

Post by Shenanagans » Fri Nov 06, 2015 4:02 pm

Glad this was resolved in a fair timely matter. Nice work everyone!
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SurrealGuy
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Re: Bike Shop Instant Text Discussion/Ruling

Post by SurrealGuy » Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:00 am

Don't know where to put this, so I'll put it here. I think I found a very consistent solution/route.
http://pastebin.com/8juwfNST

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Decon082
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Re: Bike Shop Instant Text Discussion/Ruling

Post by Decon082 » Fri Feb 19, 2016 2:00 am

I still stand by my original statements on this, instant text is NOT a glitch (and if you mention the word that starts with "over" and ends with "sight" then you're not contributing anything).

It's not a glitch, but should it be allowed?
Does it overcentralize the route?
Does it make other strategies no longer viable for world record?
How is having one strategy that's outright faster any different than any other new trick found in a speedgame?

I'm not going to answer any of these questions but I think they should be left open for discussion.
I am the person who has ruined Red "Glitchless" forever and seconhandedly, Blue NSC Single Segment too
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entrpntr
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Re: Bike Shop Instant Text Discussion/Ruling

Post by entrpntr » Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:56 am

For those who missed the context of Decon's necroposting, there was a lively, renewed discussion about Instant Text on the PSR Discord after Gunner's 1:48 (congrats btw). My take:

Any% Glitchless is meant to be an objectively defined category, to the extent that is possible (the only judgment calls are what constitutes a [major] glitch). Back in November, people clearly felt this did not qualify as banworthy. (Personally, werster, extratricky, and gifvex all had posts that changed my mind on how major a glitch this was, but I still don't see it as game-breaking.) Maybe there is an objective argument that hasn't been made for why this is a game-breaking glitch, but reversing this decision for subjective reasons would set a terrible precedent.

That said, Red runners have made their distaste for Bike Shop Instant Text clear, and as far as I can tell, most people think it detracts a good deal from the category. Exarion had a pastebin that sums up this point of view: http://pastebin.com/wqu9iGC3.

Quoting myself from earlier in the thread:
entrpntr wrote:I think the proper thing to do is ignore external considerations and rule on whether Bike Shop Instant Text fits within the spirit of the existing Any% Glitchless category. If the ruling results in significant community fracture or a longer-term effect of decimating activity/interest in the category, then in the interest of enhancing fun and healthy competition, I'd be open to solutions that introduce new categories to address the problem(s).
This is the solution employed by other communities I have seen. Two communities I mentioned early in the thread, LADX (Legacy%) and VVVVVV (Any% No Telejumping) both created new categories after the discoveries of glitches several runners felt detracted from the main category. It's also not unprecedented for RPGs to support additional categories that ban undesirable elements; I don't know the speedrun very well, but FF7 has separate categories for Any% and Any% No Slots (slots can be manipulated to instantly win any battle in the game, making battles less interesting). The current WRs are only ~12 minutes apart for ~7.5 hour categories, but there is still definite interest in both categories (a bit more in Any% No Slots).

As I haven't attempted to run Red since Instant Text was found, I can't speak for how reasonable the category is to speedrun now. But now that it's been tested out for a few months and most top runners seem to think the category is significantly less interesting/fun/varied than it was previously, I don't understand why there would be opposition to giving official recognition to runners who elect not to use Instant Text, whether by adding a playstyle column to the current leaderboard (like PMD Red/Blue Rescue Team) or creating a new category. Being conservative with adding categories is one thing, but irrational fear of adding categories is another. I don't know enough to weigh in on the best solution, but based on the recent rhetoric I've seen regarding Red, keeping the status quo would be masochistic for no good reason.

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Gunnermaniac3
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Re: Bike Shop Instant Text Discussion/Ruling

Post by Gunnermaniac3 » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:02 am

Creating a separate category for no instant text seems to be more than reasonable and an easy solution.

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Re: Bike Shop Instant Text Discussion/Ruling

Post by Keizaron » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:07 am


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