Self-verification

Discuss policy guidelines for the community and whether something needs to be changed or not.
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roushmore917
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Re: Self-verification

Post by roushmore917 » Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:54 am

Things have been clarified (mostly on how the speedrun.com submission system works, and people have been in majority agreement... There really isn't much that is the issue right now... The system works as it is, other mods of the game can reverify runs (reject if need be), but the labels stay the same... there's not much we can do for this right now.

Case Closed,
Roush

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Amoeba
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Re: Self-verification

Post by Amoeba » Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:06 am

As a small aside, if there was a basic level of trust for the current mods, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Personally I can't think of a moderator that I don't trust for any of the games, so self-verification for me isn't an issue.
~

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G_heinz
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Re: Self-verification

Post by G_heinz » Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:02 pm

tl;dr

from my understanding, exarion isn't objecting because there's any one particular case that he distrusts (though that may be the case), but because self-verification violates the principles that precipitated the current system in the first place. whether or not there have been suspicious runs of late as in the past, the verification system is designed to catch those runs before they find themselves on the leaderboard at all, so if such a run did crop up, the current system would preempt the community-wide calamities we experienced in the past. self-verification undermines this principle. that simply cannot be debated.

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RXFADEZ
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Re: Self-verification

Post by RXFADEZ » Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:14 pm

G_heinz wrote:tl;dr

from my understanding, exarion isn't objecting because there's any one particular case that he distrusts (though that may be the case), but because self-verification violates the principles that precipitated the current system in the first place. whether or not there have been suspicious runs of late as in the past, the verification system is designed to catch those runs before they find themselves on the leaderboard at all, so if such a run did crop up, the current system would preempt the community-wide calamities we experienced in the past. self-verification undermines this principle. that simply cannot be debated.
This is what I mean. I have trust in mods as they have been appointed for a reason. But if we find a solution to this problem before someone abuses their modship then it will never be an issue. If we don't nip it in the bud then we're giving it the chance to happen. It's prevention as opposed to action.

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Re: Self-verification

Post by Exarion » Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:54 pm

I think people are still misunderstanding why I brought this up. I noticed, for the first time since we've moved to speedrun.com leaderboards, that many top runs were being self-verified. In attempt to be proactive (not reactive to any problems with runs/runners/mods), I made the point that self-verification is an inherent loophole in any verification system. The trustworthiness of moderators is irrelevant to this point.

Werster, I like your suggestion, as it would allow self-verification only in cases that wouldn't be controversial.
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GarfieldTheLightning
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Re: Self-verification

Post by GarfieldTheLightning » Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:44 pm

When I submitted my White 2 time, I didn't even get the option to verify the run or not. If you look at it here, it's up there, but it doesn't say it's been verified, and I only have the option to reject it when I look at it now. I don't know how many other runs this is the case for, but that's the situation for my run.

Personally, I don't think verification carries any weight if the runner verifies their own run. Werster makes a good point in that other moderators can reject an already-verified run, but if Moderator A sees that Moderator B has verified their own run, how often is Moderator A going to check it for themselves? Not often at all, I'd wager.
I speedrun Pokémon Pearl, White 2 and X!

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Dabomstew
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Re: Self-verification

Post by Dabomstew » Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:54 pm

As of recently there is an option for mods to not self-verify their own runs now. However, that is something selected on a run by run basis when the mod submits the run and there is no option to disable self-verification on a per-game or per-series basis. Not sure if such a thing is planned either. We could attempt to implement a more local policy where any mod that does self-verify is punished or even instantly removed, but I'm not entirely sure that's really necessary.

On a semi-related note, in my opinion the current verification system is designed to apply different levels of scrutiny to different runs as circumstances dictate, similar to what other people have already said. Basically, if we forced mods to watch every run from start to finish as part of the verification process, we'd either have no volunteers for mod positions or half the runs wouldn't get verified at all. This policy of "soft verification unless the circumstances or the results of the soft verification dictate otherwise" would have been in effect even if we had started running our own leaderboards instead of moving to speedrun.com.

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RXFADEZ
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Re: Self-verification

Post by RXFADEZ » Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:32 pm

I think it should be heavily implied that it's not a good idea to self-verify and maybe for games that don't have enough active mods to verify all runs there could be a submission form where you can send a message to the series mods. A lot of people might find it difficult to get into contact with Werster, Dabom and CTM so a simple form that they can all see may be useful.

(example how this would play out: Person A wants to run Pokémon Obscure Edition. They are modded as they are the only runner. To avoid people looking at the self-verification and thinking that there's no true filtration of cheated runs, the person who runs Pokémon Obscure can fill out this form, at which point an email/message/etc. will be sent to the three series moderators and they can verify the run.)

Personally, I have no problem with small games with few active runnners self-verifying but the issue is where do you draw the line between inactive and active games.

Anyway, my thoughts aren't fact and I think it's good that we're having a discussion without attacking individuals. I think we all want what's best for the community and any measure that can be taken to help improve the verification process, in my opinion, is a good measure as it makes the community seem more legitimate.

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