Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Discuss policy guidelines for the community and whether something needs to be changed or not.
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Cooltrainermichael
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Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by Cooltrainermichael » Sat Dec 06, 2014 6:10 am

This thread is a centralized place where you can post any general points of concern or suggestions related to our recent move to speedrun.com for the Pokemon Speedruns leaderboards, as was announced over here. Pretty much anything goes in this thread as long as it doesn’t break the general forum rules.

Note: This is not the place to apply to become a moderator on the speedrun.com PSR leaderboards. If you want to do that, jump over to this thread instead.

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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by GarfieldTheLightning » Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:58 am

Right now, the platform on which the game was run seems to have been set to a default. For example, it says that my PMD Red/Blue run was on GBA, when it was in fact on DS. I assume this kind of stuff can be changed by a game moderator.

For runs with the videos in multiple parts, it doesn't show the videos correctly on the site. I understand that you'd prefer just one video (and in fact require it for the run to be eligible for WR), but for runs like my 6th-placed PMD Blue run where I didn't feel the need to upload it to YouTube in a single video because it was a first run, it would be good if they were displayed properly.
I speedrun Pokémon Pearl, White 2 and X!

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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by Luckless » Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:56 pm

Couple of things i've noticed:
  • Pokemon Rumble categories are very mixed up, it currently shows the same 4 times for both Any% and Any% No Passwords, which makes me question the All Stages and Advanced Any% times too.
  • Times weren't transferred over for Omega Ruby/Alpha Sapphire, yet the wiki leaderboard was replaced with a link to the new empty board. I'm assuming the reason they weren't transferred was because of the fact we had both RTA and IGT listed for the obvious reasons.
  • The majority of leaderboards are set by default to have the "include emulator" box checked, now you might think this is the same as it was on the old leaderboards but in some cases it can be more misleading on the new leaderboards than it was on the old. For Example; for Pokemon TCG by default it shows 2 times: Aneeslol - 1:06 and Don_carnage - 1:17, both on emulator, however, the time currently considered as "World Record" is Aneeslol's console time of 1:08 which isn't even shown at all until you uncheck the "include emulator" box. At least with the old leaderboard it showed it regardless but with this new one you have to manually do that.
  • There were a couple games added that have no times listed also, like Pokemon Battle Revolution, Ranger, Mystery Dungeon: EoT/D, Sky. This is fine, it would just be nice if people could get times up for them asap since the existence of the categories are clearly shown by the leaderboards being there.
  • A function is there to show "misc categories" but only Red NoSC and Yellow 151 are part of it, why doesn't this function have all of the other challenge% categories too?
  • I went on the "streams" page for the leaderboards in general and it shows 2 streams, 1 is a wondertrade race on OR/AS between 4 people, which makes me question why the other 3 streamers taking part arn't also shown, and 1 is a Red runs stream. Now I go to the Red/Blue page specifically and click on "streams" and it shows 2 "Red speedrun attempts" streams. So why did the general streams page only show 1 of those 2? (I went back after to check again and still only 1)
Ok I admit, I was intentionally trying to be picky, just some things to be aware of really, along with what garfield said. They're not really faults in the system because in general the new leaderboards are awesome! Just things we can be aware of and check for since we'll seemingly have moderators for so many games :D
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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by Vulajin » Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:10 pm

I went on the "streams" page for the leaderboards in general and it shows 2 streams, 1 is a wondertrade race on OR/AS between 4 people, which makes me question why the other 3 streamers taking part arn't also shown, and 1 is a Red runs stream. Now I go to the Red/Blue page specifically and click on "streams" and it shows 2 "Red speedrun attempts" streams. So why did the general streams page only show 1 of those 2? (I went back after to check again and still only 1)
This, I assume, is because only one person has an account on speedrun.com.

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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by Cooltrainermichael » Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:43 pm

GarfieldTheLightning wrote:Right now, the platform on which the game was run seems to have been set to a default. For example, it says that my PMD Red/Blue run was on GBA, when it was in fact on DS. I assume this kind of stuff can be changed by a game moderator.
Yes, this can be changed by a game moderator, but I changed it for you for now. All future requests will be done by the game moderator.
GarfieldTheLightning wrote:For runs with the videos in multiple parts, it doesn't show the videos correctly on the site. I understand that you'd prefer just one video (and in fact require it for the run to be eligible for WR), but for runs like my 6th-placed PMD Blue run where I didn't feel the need to upload it to YouTube in a single video because it was a first run, it would be good if they were displayed properly.
Thank you for bringing up this issue, it must have been one of the issues with the script. Will be asking Pac about this once he is available.

Edit: When you submit a run in multiple parts, just separate them with a space in the Video header.
Luckless wrote:
  • Pokemon Rumble categories are very mixed up, it currently shows the same 4 times for both Any% and Any% No Passwords, which makes me question the All Stages and Advanced Any% times too.
Fixed. Was an issue with the script but all runs should be good now.
Luckless wrote: [*]Times weren't transferred over for Omega Ruby/Alpha Sapphire, yet the wiki leaderboard was replaced with a link to the new empty board. I'm assuming the reason they weren't transferred was because of the fact we had both RTA and IGT listed for the obvious reasons.
Yes, that must have also been an issue with the script. All the times have been moved over now, with IGT listed for now unless the community decides otherwise.
Luckless wrote: [*]The majority of leaderboards are set by default to have the "include emulator" box checked, now you might think this is the same as it was on the old leaderboards but in some cases it can be more misleading on the new leaderboards than it was on the old. For Example; for Pokemon TCG by default it shows 2 times: Aneeslol - 1:06 and Don_carnage - 1:17, both on emulator, however, the time currently considered as "World Record" is Aneeslol's console time of 1:08 which isn't even shown at all until you uncheck the "include emulator" box. At least with the old leaderboard it showed it regardless but with this new one you have to manually do that.
This is a really good point. I will ask Pac what options we have regarding this.
Luckless wrote: [*]There were a couple games added that have no times listed also, like Pokemon Battle Revolution, Ranger, Mystery Dungeon: EoT/D, Sky. This is fine, it would just be nice if people could get times up for them asap since the existence of the categories are clearly shown by the leaderboards being there.
All updated now.
Luckless wrote: [*]A function is there to show "misc categories" but only Red NoSC and Yellow 151 are part of it, why doesn't this function have all of the other challenge% categories too?
We just chose a couple, the individual game moderators / community can decide which challenge% categories can fall under miscellaneous.
Luckless wrote: [*]I went on the "streams" page for the leaderboards in general and it shows 2 streams, 1 is a wondertrade race on OR/AS between 4 people, which makes me question why the other 3 streamers taking part arn't also shown, and 1 is a Red runs stream. Now I go to the Red/Blue page specifically and click on "streams" and it shows 2 "Red speedrun attempts" streams. So why did the general streams page only show 1 of those 2? (I went back after to check again and still only 1)[/list]
Yes, I believe Vulajin got it right. Make sure to make that speedrun.com account :)
Luckless wrote: Ok I admit, I was intentionally trying to be picky, just some things to be aware of really, along with what garfield said. They're not really faults in the system because in general the new leaderboards are awesome! Just things we can be aware of and check for since we'll seemingly have moderators for so many games :D
No problem.

Edit: Responded to Garfield's question on multiple part vod's
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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by luckytyphlosion » Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:40 am

Another error, Shenanagans's Yellow NSC run says 52:16, but it shows the video for his 57:54, which is his best console time.

Another suggestion. Is there any way to make a "hub" page for all Pokemon Speedrun times, so it would be easier to navigate to different pages, rather than having to search up each game? EDIT: wait nvm found the "Pokémon series" page

EDIT: Apparently tigerkyle's Colosseum Battle revolution Video was in 2 parts and only had the second part, but nobody noticed and the time is still on the WR page (although I'll probably fix it)

Halqery's Time/Darkness run was a past broadcast so it's now deleted, and DhrGR's TD run only shows the second part of the video, which doesn't have a first part.

Don_carnage's run has a S+Q and was based on the IGT (I think?), so you'd either need to remove the run, or change the ruleset to include S+Q and retime all runs.

I'll probably add more mistakes/bugs? (not exactly sure what to call them), but for now this is all I've found. Someone probably should scan all times to make sure that they all make sense and there are no errors.

You also forgot to add Dabomstew's Yellow 151 Run Kappa

EDIT 4: here is tigerkyle's first part to his battle revolution run: http://www.twitch.tv/tigerkyle1/c/4529584
Last edited by luckytyphlosion on Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:57 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by Cooltrainermichael » Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:49 am

luckytyphlosion wrote:Another error, Shenanagans's Yellow NSC run says 52:16, but it shows the video for his 57:54, which is his best console time.
Fixed.
luckytyphlosion wrote:Another suggestion. Is there any way to make a "hub" page for all Pokemon Speedrun times, so it would be easier to navigate to different pages, rather than having to search up each game?
Already done. You can search for Pokemon series in the search bar: http://www.speedrun.com/pokemon Or just click pokemon series below the game picture when you view the leaderboard.
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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by M.BisonFuté » Sun Dec 07, 2014 10:57 pm

I don't know if this would be possible but I would really like to see some rom hacks leaderboard (games seperated as categories). I've already done 2 games that can be done full game and i'll do more in the future OpieOP

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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by Amoeba » Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:10 pm

If a mod submits a run to a leaderboard that they mod, is there anything special that's done or is it just verified by one of the other mods?
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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by Vulajin » Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:42 pm

It just goes through. A mod can also submit runs on behalf of other users, and those just go through as well.

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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by werster » Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:50 pm

Is there any reason why Mystery Dungeon Red/Blue does not have Emulator times hidden by default? All top players use Blue, which is the DS version, and I would then assume emulator would have the issue of Desmume, which runs faster than console (even if you used Red, because the game uses Real Time instead of Game Time, there still isn't a 100% accurate GBA emu running around either)

This seems highly inconsistent as the DS only Mystery Dungeons (Time/Darkness/Sky) have emulator hidden by default.

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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by Amoeba » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:44 pm

Stupid question: How do you tell if emulator runs are hidden by default? Emerald's leaderboard has them up by default for me, but I imagine that's because that's how it was saved in my cookies/whatever last time I was there.
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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by werster » Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:54 pm

If emulator runs are hidden by default the little checkbox that says "Include Emulator" will be unchecked by default when you load the page.

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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by Amoeba » Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:33 pm

Ohh gotcha. I thought that all the games were having emu runs hidden as default, but I see that its just been done for DS games, at least at the moment.
Bit of a pickle for PMD though.
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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by werster » Fri Dec 12, 2014 12:53 am

Another one I noticed, is Pokemon Ranger, a DS game. As SirRouven is the only mod, I'm assuming he added this rule:

- Emulators are allowed because capturing a DS/3DS is very expensive and costs shouldn´t keep people away from speedrunning. You might want to use a graphic tablet to draw circles.

I can understand your want for competition, but this doesn't make any sense, especially given the community decisions over the past year, along with simply how speedrunning works. As a DS game, all emulators play this game faster than any console can, and therefore do not produce accurate results, or provide fair competition. You are still able to submit to the game if played on emulator, so they are technically "allowed", but they should not show by default (there is a checkbox that says "Include emulator" that can be made to be unchecked by default)

I haven't changed this because I don't know Pokemon Ranger as well as I could, but unless SirRouven or someone else can explain why these games should be different, I'll probably change that soon (along with Mystery Dungeon Red/Blue), as all games should be consistent along the series, and actually make sense.

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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by SirRouven » Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:35 am

I didn´t really add this rule. I guess someone copied the text from the wiki and pasted it on speedrun.com but in the end I added it because I wrote that article.
Of course you are right, I wanted some competition and I am willing to erase this rule since emulators create unfair advantages and nobody even wants to run this game on emulator. Drawing circles with your mouse is nearly impossible.

You don´t need to do something about this. I will change it since it really makes no sense.

Anyways, thanks for pointing that out.

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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by werster » Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:46 am

Oh, sorry for that then, and thanks for the quick change ^_^

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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by werster » Sat Dec 13, 2014 11:11 am

Alright, I hid emulator for Mystery Dungeon too, since no one said anything about that. I guess we're keeping emulator shown by default for games where it doesn't give a clear advantage for now.

This post has to do with the rules for the games, now on speedrun.com

I'm guessing a lot of these were just carried over from here, but now that I've actually looked at them, I feel like some are rather redundant or should be re-worded etc. Below is a list of changes I have made, and others I query about, and think should be changed, for anyone who might have something to say (I feel it be best to document things like this in case there are any questions etc.) I'll probably change some of the lighter queries myself, if no one says anything within a week or so.

Changes made:

Red/Blue: Fixed a few typos (Glutches)
#2: Changed the NSC rules to mirror Yellows NSC rules (R/B did not mention having to use english, along with other poor wording)

Yellow: Change 151 rules to mirror R/B (Y had really bad wording and doesn't mention just setting Pokedex flags)

TCG: Removed "*Emulator and console runs are accepted.", as this is pretty pointless given that we are keeping emulator runs showing for games where they don't give a clear advantage, and this game uses IGT (and is a GBC game)

GSC: Renamed "reloading to go to Kanto after Lance is allowed." to "resetting after entering the Hall of Fame is permitted", the former was worded pitifully (you end up at your house, in Johto, reloading to Kanto would be some form of voodoo)
#2: Moved "Fill in the seconds as 00 for now, the seconds will be removed from the display in a speedrun.com update later on." from Any% to Any% glitchless, as this is completely wrong and makes no sense in an RTA category (G/S)
#3: Renamed "Any% glitched" to "Any%" on G/S as the glitched is redundant
#4: Added a note that glitches are not allowed in Any% glitchless

Emerald: Removed "*Using glitches are allowed." from Any%, as this should only be stated if the opposite is true, the standard is that glitches are allowed.

Black/White + Black 2/White 2: Removed "* RNG manipulation by setting the clock before starting a new game is allowed.
* RNG manipulation using save+quit is not allowed. " As S+Q is banned in a previous rule, and explicitly stating that RNG manip is allowed is fairly stupid and pointless, and it's already mentioned below that doing it on emu just in the middle of a run isn't allowed.

Queries:

Red/Blue/Yellow: This might be a bit controversial amongst those who run it, but why the hell is 151 a primary category in Red/Blue but not in Yellow? And then why the hell is NSC a primary category in Yellow, but then not in Red/Blue? This makes absolutely zero sense, regardless of the competition involved, as they have the exact same rulesets. Even though both runs play slightly different in the different games, they have the exact same premise, and it is incomprehensibly inconsistent to say it is a "misc" category in one game, but not the other. Make a decision for both and stick with it (I'd say they are both misc, but it's not my decision to make)

Snap: This game has no rules, which honestly I am fine with for Any%, it's pretty fucking straightforward, but something should be put up for 100%, just to clarify what 100% is (but again, should be pretty fucking obvious, but all completionist categories should have it down)

Stadium 1/2: "*No glitches allowed"? First off, what glitches can you use? Second off, I'm pretty sure if there are any, people would be using them. The fact that that's there threw me off big time
#2: *Runs must be done on English versions"? Why? This isn't a text based game, so long as you play the corresponding game (Stadium 2 in Japan for Stadium internationally, etc) there should be no reason to ban the Japanese version, as it should have no difference at all

Mystery Dungeon: Is there a reason why R/B and Gates use Real Time, but Time/Darkness/Sky use IGT? Seems rather peculiar to me, and I do appreciate consistency

Diamond/Pearl: "Timing ends when you enter the hall of fame and dismount your bike." This seems oddly weird to me, why does timing end when there are still textboxes, and you still haven't entered the Hall of Fame? For reference, this is the screen before you register your Pokemon, and Cynthia is still talking to you at this point. This is not only inconsistent with other games timing, but makes no sense as there are still inputs and the game isn't yet beaten.

Battle Revolution: "Runs must be done on English version." - I don't know if Jap has any difference in this game, having not played it, but I'd suggest this could be the same as Stadium in being a non text-based game, I don't see a reason to ban?

Pokepark vs Pokepark 2: These rules are done very differently, one in detail the other not. One bans english and passwords, the other doesn't. As a top hater of inconsistency, and a low level knowledge of Pokepark games, I just wonder what the real go here is.

R/S + FR/LG + B2/W2 + Conquest + X/Y + OR/AS: No reason for calling it "Any% Glitchless"? For the moment, it should really just be known as "Any%", calling it anything else is a fruitless expedition, as Any% is the real true standard category, no reason to call it glitchless just because the game doesn't have glitches. This name makes sense for Crystal and Platinum, as both games -have- glitched categories (known simply as Any%) which just have not been run as of yet. Running the game as fast as you possibly can shouldn't have the tag of "glitchless" in the category name, simply because it doesn't use glitches, plain and simple.

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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by Amoeba » Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:12 pm

On the lines of improving the look of the leaderboards, is it possible for someone to change the cover images for some of the games? Pokemon Rumble doesn't have the box art, and the pokepark2 and ORAS could do with better cropping. I can sort the images out if need be, but obvs can't change them~
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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by Fretzi » Sat Dec 13, 2014 6:09 pm

The thing with the Pokémon Mystery Dungeon timing is that the PMD community doesn't care enough to set the timing for all games.
We said that ingame time is accurate enough to be used for Sky since nobody has done a run of Sky, but the only problem is that all the times are in real time for R/B and Gates and there is no way to tell the ingame time if you didn't check them after the run, so we would have to remove ALL times that have been sumbitted so far in order to change the timing.
I'm not sure if the ingame time in GTI is accurate, but I know it is for Red/Blue/Time/Darkness/Sky.

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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by Shenanagans » Sat Dec 13, 2014 6:41 pm

I feel like Yellow NSC should be a secondary category. We changed the stance on Red NSC due to the hilarity of the category (basically grind till 0 encounters and get free "WR") Yellow never received the BTW glitch so we never really brought up its legitimacy.

151 Pokemon should still remain as primary imo. Its a solid category that meets a clear definition of completing a major objective within the game (catching all the pokemon and completing the pokedex). Its not as simple as a category as grind runs until you get no encounters like NSC categories are, and it actually gets to show off a lot of the game (dsum, Uflow, BTW, CT, Tfly, ect).

Would love to hear from the other Gen 1 Glitched runners.
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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by luckytyphlosion » Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:19 pm

For 151 rules, you should probably add that "executing arbitrary code" is not allowed. Even if you didn't set Pokédex flags, you could simply make code that simply gives a Pokémon to you, which wouldn't be very interesting of a run.
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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by Eekcast » Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:24 pm

Diamond/Pearl has always been a weird one in terms of timing; it should just start upon in-game restart and end after Hall of Fame save after it shows your team, after the "<player> saved the game." text.

I will probably re-time all the runs on the leaderboard to use that, since there is no reason the glitched run should end upon entering Hall of Fame with inputs left anyway lol.

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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by Cooltrainermichael » Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:27 pm

The changes you already made look good, no further comment really.

Regarding the queries, just a couple points:
werster wrote: Stadium 1/2: "*No glitches allowed"? First off, what glitches can you use? Second off, I'm pretty sure if there are any, people would be using them. The fact that that's there threw me off big time
#2: *Runs must be done on English versions"? Why? This isn't a text based game, so long as you play the corresponding game (Stadium 2 in Japan for Stadium internationally, etc) there should be no reason to ban the Japanese version, as it should have no difference at all
So the rules were initially made back when GeneralEmu had the only time on the leaderboard, so it really hasn't been changed much since. I believe the "no glitches allowed" ruling was just to cover the bases in case something was found, but I agree it is rather redundant.

Regarding the second point, I know Maquina_azul30 tested Stadium 2 Japanese (which should be equivalent to Stadium 1 English), but the rentals have completely awful movesets that makes the speedrun quite different (aka Legendary Birds lacking good STAB moves such as Zapdos with Thundershock). Thus, I think for that case I don't think the English and Japanese runs can be compared. No one has checked if the rental movesets/trainer pokemon are the same in Pokemon Stadium: Gold and Silver (The Japanese version of the English Stadum 2), so that can be something to test in the future.

Also, the ruling was initially made because there seemed to be a blanket ban of Japanese categories across the Wiki, so the Stadium community just decided to follow that for consistency. So, I think that ruling can stay for now for at least Stadium 1. Stadium 2 still needs to be verified.
werster wrote: Snap: This game has no rules, which honestly I am fine with for Any%, it's pretty fucking straightforward, but something should be put up for 100%, just to clarify what 100% is (but again, should be pretty fucking obvious, but all completionist categories should have it down)
Agreed, the Snap community kind of joined the Wiki later on compared to other games, and Spark mostly moved things over. However, he hasn't run Snap for awhile and didn't change much except move the times over from their google doc, and now that Snap has a had a surge in popularity recently, I think the Snap mods should get some basic rules on there haha.
werster wrote: R/S + FR/LG + B2/W2 + Conquest + X/Y + OR/AS: No reason for calling it "Any% Glitchless"? For the moment, it should really just be known as "Any%", calling it anything else is a fruitless expedition, as Any% is the real true standard category, no reason to call it glitchless just because the game doesn't have glitches. This name makes sense for Crystal and Platinum, as both games -have- glitched categories (known simply as Any%) which just have not been run as of yet. Running the game as fast as you possibly can shouldn't have the tag of "glitchless" in the category name, simply because it doesn't use glitches, plain and simple.
This change works for me. We did change it for the FAQs many months ago after one of the users commented on that fix, but no one bothered to change it for the categories at the time. I assume that if a glitched category is ever found, then it could be changed back to glitchless, but changing them now to any% sounds like a good suggestion.

Regarding the other queries, I think it is best to hear from those game mods/active runners. A note on PBR is that Tigerkyle is the only one with a time in that category and no one seems to be actively running it, so I am not sure if a ruling will exactly be made. If someone can check if the Japanese PBR is exactly the same, then possibly. I know Pac mentioned how he wanted to start getting Japanese Pokemon times on these boards at some point, as well as others, so that might be a policy issue to discuss in the future.
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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by Maquina_azul30 » Sun Dec 14, 2014 12:29 am

Regarding the Stadium 1 rules I agree that the japanese version (pocket monsters stadium 2) shouldn't be banned. The rental pokemons do have different movesets and after translating all the movesets for the rental pokemon I got to say that the game is harder than the english version. In conclusion its basically the same game except for the movesets so it would be silly to make different categories for the game. Also ive never seen any glitches for stadium but if there was I agree that it should be a different category.

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