Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Discuss policy guidelines for the community and whether something needs to be changed or not.
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werster
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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by werster » Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:11 am

The reason I brought up J specifically for stadiums was I was going to add region on those games, for NTSC/PAL/Jap to differentiate, but still show on the same leaderboard. I'll look into the games personally later on to make sure whether Japanese should definitely be banned, we'll see.

Agree on 151 should have banning arbitrary execution, I'll put that in when I do the changes later on

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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by eddaket » Sun Dec 14, 2014 2:31 pm

Shenanagans wrote:I feel like Yellow NSC should be a secondary category. We changed the stance on Red NSC due to the hilarity of the category (basically grind till 0 encounters and get free "WR") Yellow never received the BTW glitch so we never really brought up its legitimacy.

151 Pokemon should still remain as primary imo. Its a solid category that meets a clear definition of completing a major objective within the game (catching all the pokemon and completing the pokedex). Its not as simple as a category as grind runs until you get no encounters like NSC categories are, and it actually gets to show off a lot of the game (dsum, Uflow, BTW, CT, Tfly, ect).

Would love to hear from the other Gen 1 Glitched runners.
For NSC, I'm sort of on the fence about it being a "real" category. It is a real run that has you "complete" the game, but it does have a seemingly arbitrary restriction on it to make it less dumb than the save corruption run (and actually have a little competition). I don't like the argument that with BTW it's less competitive because now it's just get the least encounters, but I see the point. Because it's so short, it's easy to get almost no encounters with little effort. There's very little skill that goes into the run, so as long as you know what buttons to press, you're good. As for the whole Red NSC/Yellow NSC being treated the same, I agree they should be. It's kind of weird to an outsider to see that the same category is treated differently in the two games. What do we think is worse? Having a fake category be a real one, or having a more elaborate category be fake?

For 151 I absolutely agree with Sheanagans. It's definitely solid enough, competitive, and has a decent number of active (well sort of active Keepo ) runners. Yellow 151 probably should be a real category too. I think it's only not because no one actually runs it, not because of anything in the run, but I could be wrong.

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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by luckytyphlosion » Sun Dec 14, 2014 5:13 pm

Yellow 151 is an odd case. About 45 minutes into the run, you have to face a 1/8 chance of encountering a level 80 Starmie with the right DVs to generate a "Stable" Missingno, which takes about 50 seconds per Reset. Because of the 1/8 chance, nobody really bothered to check the other RNG parts in the run, and assumed it was a bad run overall since if you want the perfect time, you had to reset every 45 Minutes in the run, because of a 1/8 chance.

I'm not going to go more indepth about the different RNG spots in the run, but a category shouldn't be considered "Misc" just because of a bad RNG spot. Yellow 151 still showcases other aspects in the run that Blue 151 does not (Lol Glitch, "Crazy Warp" and a different playstyle overall), and should not be banned just because of "RNG" in the run. (may as well ban blue 151 if you say y151 should be banned because of RNG, because blue 151 is just an "RNG" category as Yellow is)
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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by Shenanagans » Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:09 am

I would be fine with either both NSC's being Main Categories, or Both being MISC Categories, as long as it's consistent. It's really easy to argue either for or against it being a main category. We should probably have some type of vote on this tbh.

Yellow 151 is weird because 0 people have done runs of it (outside dabom's 1 emu run). Similar to when Emerald glitched was just becoming a thing it wasn't listed on the LB's until Werster finished his run. I also dont see it being very popular, despite how unique it is. If somebody does decide to run it I wont argue against it's place on the lb's though.
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werster
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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by werster » Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:30 pm

Yeah I had a look at the Japanese Stadium versions, Stadium 1 is different but I couldn't find a single poke that had a better moveset, so there's no way anyone would be using that for a better time, no reason to ban that at all. And Stadium 2 has the exact same movesets, so no reason to ban that either.

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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by Gamefandan » Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:57 am

I can't believe I only just read through this thread. Having read that the general consensus is that Snap needs to have defined rules, I have added simple rules to Any% and 100%.

In addition, some members of the Snap community feel that adding a third category might be a fun idea. The most popular idea is "Challenge%". After you beat Pokemon Snap, Prof. Oak tells you about a sort of challenge mode where in each stage there is a set high score to beat. Unlike playing the game normally where you can only choose one picture for each species, in challenge mode you get points for every picture you take. The idea is that in "Challenge%" you are to attain the high score (or better) in every stage. At this moment it is only an idea, we aren't exactly sure where timing would start or end; in the meantime, I'd love to see some opinions. OneHand

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werster
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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by werster » Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:56 pm

Please try not to add categories just for the hell of it, it degrades the value of what is already there. Unless it is a very obvious category to exist (Any%, etc), you should definitely only be veering into "new" categories, that offer different competition, and different gameplay, that actually has substance. There's nothing wrong with making up categories to run yourself, just probably not the greatest idea to throw them on the site or anything until they become a bit more competitive (I do this a lot: See Crystal Battle Tower, etc)

At the very, very least, make things like "Challenge Score%" Misc, which is where it should be even if it went through this whole process (If you're literally putting a % character in the name and it's not actually refering to percentage ie 100%, pretty good tip it doesn't belong in the main categories)

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roushmore917
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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by roushmore917 » Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:17 am

Yes Werster, but you can make more goals under the "Individual level" set... For instance, once upon a time Spinda% was quite popular, and I'd like to see if we can't add it and make it a sub category, I'd like to get the permission of the other emerald mods as well.

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werster
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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by werster » Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:17 am

I...am not sure what you are saying. Are you suggesting adding more categories under "Individual Levels"? Because that isn't what an Individual Level is. An IL is going through, as the name suggests, Individual Levels of a game as fast as possible. Like say Green Hill 1 in Sonic 1, or Rainbow Road in Super Mario Kart.

Spinda%, especially at its peak popularity, would've been a fine Misc category. I really don't know why you've brought up ILs at all really >_>

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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by Gamefandan » Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:39 am

Yeah, I did a couple runs the other night and said I wasn't going to add it to the leaderboards until other people did runs, but then AJ added it; as it is now I think that leaving it as an official category is preferential to moving it to a miscellaneous section. Challenge Scores are something that are in the game as an actual intended goal to attain, unlike pseudo categories such as "purple pads only" in DK64. The argument over whether or not a percent symbol should be in the title is really a coin flip in my opinion. It seems like that in the speedrunning community if you're doing a speedrun you need to have "%" at the end of the category, or the speedrun cops will get you. OpieOP Nevertheless, I'm not adversed to naming the category anything else, nor am I against removing the category entirely until more people finish runs.

Edit: I have edited Challenge Score% to be a miscellaneous category until more people start running the category.

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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by eddaket » Sun Dec 28, 2014 4:15 pm

This may be more of a question for speedrun.com in general, not just for the Pokemon section of it, but I figured I'd ask here to see if anyone knew. Is there a way to see the most recent submissions? I know they have the front page with the most recent submissions on the entire site, but I'd like to see most recent Pokemon ones. Something I used to do when the leaderboards were on here is go to the "Recent Changes" page on the wiki and see what's been updated. I liked seeing the new times people had and I feel like I can't really do that anymore.

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werster
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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by werster » Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:10 am

Well, obviously you could check each game and look down the date column for anything recent. If you mean for the whole series, I don't think anything like that is on the site at the moment. One idea I did have was something very similar, were on the site it would be cool to "subscribe" to a game/series, so you could look at any new updates for specific games that you choose and have that tied to your account. So maybe in the future, I guess.

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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by SirRouven » Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:02 am

I didn´t really find a place where I could ask this so I hope that it is okay to do that here.

I was browsing through the pokémon leaderboards on speedrun.com and stumbled across Pokémon Ranger 2 and 3.
By looking at the mods for those games I saw the usual global moderators for all pokémon games but also a guy called Jumpyluff.
He is a moderator for those two games but no other pokémon game and especially not the first ranger game.
So my question is: Why is that guy a moderator for Pokémon Ranger 2 and 3 while he doesn´t speedrun those games and seems to have no connection to pokémon speedruns in any other way.
It just seems totally random to me that he is a moderator for these games.

It doesn´t really matter since there are no runs of these games yet anyways but I was just curious about this.

I would appreciate it if someone could explain this to me.

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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by Cooltrainermichael » Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:34 am

Thanks for your message Rouven. It turns out that when speedrun.com staff approves new games, the person that requested automatically gets modded. After talking with Pac, this will not be an issue in the future for Pokemon games, and all game mods will go through the mod process for consistency's sake. Thus, the Japanese TCG and Ranger games that have been recently added do not have mods currently until they follow the mod process.

As a reminder, the mod application thread can be found here. Please read over the guidelines carefully.
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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by Fretzi » Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:11 pm

I want to post a complain about the Pokémon Mystery Dungeon Red/Blue Mods.
First I sumbitted my time as an any% run and they moved it to the any% no s+q Leaderboards.
Then I removed the time and sumbitted it again to any% but then they just removed it.
My run meets the creterias for an any% run, and if they don't allow that for no real reason then I want to complain about it.
The run back was any% and the "new" any% still meets the same conditions as the old one.
But I also wanna make these changes more "official" to the other people to discuse about seperating runs with RNG Manipulation and without RNG Manipulation.

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werster
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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by werster » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:03 am

Fretzi: My guess is, the mods of the game decided to split the categories to emphasis which runs have RNG manipulation, and which ones do not. By submitting your run (which I'm assuming did not?) to any%, you spoil that information. It also would give you a very easy 1st place on the boards that your time may not actually reflect, and so they decided to keep consistency it would make sense to have it in any% no s+q

However, you are absolutely right in that any run can be submittable to any%, it is after all the definition of the category. It is absolutely your decision whether or not you want to submit your time there or not, and if it still complies to normal rules, it's really stupid that it was moved.

What could have been done to prevent that, is instead of moving over the times to any% no s+q, they could've duplicated them, as all current runs there do currently comply with any% anyway.

Or, the even smarter option, not creating a "separate" category in any%, before there is actually a run to submit to it.

Or, the genius option, not making a separate category to begin with, just because a new technique is found doesn't mean fucking "no s+q" should be a separate category. On speedrun.com you can even add an extra variable to a board if you wanted. So you could've just had any%, added a variable for "RNG manipulation" or "Single Segment" or "Save and Quit" and put all the current ones at no.

Look at something like this http://www.speedrun.com/bt as an example, with Jinjo Manip.

Please clarify if I have any of the facts wrong.

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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by GarfieldTheLightning » Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:21 am

Let me lay out exactly what RNG manipulation does for PMD Red/Blue runs so that people can make an informed judgment on the issue without jumping down each others' throats.

If you quicksave next to the stairs on the first floor of any dungeon, then quicksave and hard reset, the remaining floors of that dungeon are always the same. This means that corridor/room layout, items and their positions, enemy Pokémon and their positions - everything about the dungeon is set to the same seed every time. This also sets Pokémon's movements and whether your attacks hit or miss (if you do exactly the same set of movements/attacks every time). The RNG of the first floor of a dungeon, what items the Kecleon Shop stocks (although you might not need to visit the shop any more) and what jobs you get on the Bulletin Board are still out of your control.

The argument has gotten needlessly fractious already, but my personal view is that since RNG manipulation changes the speedrun from one of adaptability and risk vs. reward into one of meticulous routing and memorisation, the differences in approach and mindset are sufficient to create two separate categories.

I don't know anything about Banjo-Tooie, but other games have split categories too instead of just adding a variable (Spyro 2 and Twilight Princess are two off the top of my head).

I agree that the list of any% no S+Q runs should be copied to the any% leaderboard if both categories stay on the PMD Red/Blue page.
I speedrun Pokémon Pearl, White 2 and X!

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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by Amoeba » Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:59 am

I'll throw in my opinion on the PMD leaderboards thing, but it's basically echoing werster's. The fact that the entire route has undergone a huge shift in playstyle doesn't change the category that is being run, nor does it warrant creating a new arbitrary category to save a now defunct route. However due to the (soon to be, once someone actually completes an rng manip run) immense differences in the style of runs, a column for "RNG manip Y/N" makes a lot of sense.

"No Save+Quit" is a particularly bad category as well, as not only do some of the runs currently in that category use safety saves and resets (therefore nullifying their place on that one leaderboard) but as mentioned, they should all appear on the any% leaderboard as well, and, so far, the one run that's been submitted to the any% leaderboard (fretzi's) has been removed, multiple times, despite the run being within the requirements of that leaderboard. There's a moderator for these games that appears to be trying to separate the leaderboards into "rng manip leaderboards" and "not rng manip leaderboards", rather than having them represent the rulesets they actually describe. (that's ignoring the fact that one of them is a bad category in the first place).

To re-use what I said in the skype group; "I know it sucks that you/we/everyone spent a lot of time getting good runs using the old route, but if a faster route appears you can't just cling on to the old one because of that. RNG manip is the faster route now, lets go get some better times than what we had, rather leaving our old times to stagnate in an arbitrary category that no one else is going to run."
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werster
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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by werster » Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:50 am

Thank you for clarifying the situation Garfield.

My stance is still the same, as that's pretty much what I thought. The only reason anyone would cling onto No S+Q is because it's what was run in the past. If the first runs of the game knew about the manipulation, and everyone did runs like that, who in their right minds would consider doing runs without it? And someone came along and did runs without manipulation, you'd just not notice, they are obviously doing something slower and arbitrary to play to their own playstyle which is -not fast-. If you didn't like the playstyle of the game you just wouldn't play it.

RNG manip ALWAYS changes how the route works into a deeper routing based mechanism vs adaptability. Do we have non RNG manip leaderboards for gen 4/5? It'll be a damn cold day in hell when that happens. If you want to run without using the S+Q, that's your prerogative, and you can even show on the boards that you didn't use it with an extra variable, but it isn't a separate category.

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SirRouven
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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by SirRouven » Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:56 pm

I experienced a strange "bug" on speedrun.com while editing a game.

I edited Pokémon Ranger earlier today to make some visual changes and to add a japanese cover but for some reason the site removed series moderators from the game.
I already tried to fix that but the site doesn´t let me.
I check the box for the series moderators but it doesn´t add them to the list.

Maybe this is just a temporary issue or my computer but I thought that it would be the best to inform the community about it.

Do other people also have this kind of problem with other games on speedrun.com?

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Fretzi
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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by Fretzi » Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:45 pm

The Kirby community also got that thing, but for some reason they also added someone who was never a moderator as a super-mod http://www.speedrun.com/katam

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Fretzi
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Re: Speedrun.com Transition Discussion

Post by Fretzi » Fri May 15, 2015 2:41 am

After I finally finished my run of Ranger 2 100%, can we add Pokémon Ranger Shadows of Almia on Speedrun.com?
http://www.twitch.tv/fretzi_sr/v/5045247

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