Emulators that must be banned

Discuss policy guidelines for the community and whether something needs to be changed or not.
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Zewing
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Emulators that must be banned

Post by Zewing » Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:31 am

Ignore what was posted in other threads, this is something I believe the community has been fairly poor in addressing.

I have looked at the list of emulators page and noticed only one emulator has been banned, and that is PJ64 2.0, which was globally banned due to its inability to run at a standard FPS.

Now, I have talked to a few people and they told me that SGB (super game boy) for the SNES runs at 61.1 FPS, which technically means it should be banned. Now, this is an understood among most runners, but why has it not been addressed as a banned emulator on the "list of emulators" section on this wiki? In fact, why are all knowingly inaccurate emulators not properly banned? Does the community honestly have no backbone that banning something would cause a war cry?

The following is from the page I will discuss: http://wiki.pokemonspeedruns.com/index.php/Emulators
From wiki
Gameboy / Gameboy Color

Recommended Emulator: Gambatte. For the interested, the main source project is at https://github.com/sinamas/gambatte. As far as we are aware, the timing on Gambatte is exactly the same as on console.

BGB is used for Gold Glitched any% because Gambatte does not emulate some glitches correctly.

If you use BGB, you must set the following option to ensure the timing is accurate: Graphics > vsync: Vsync disabled.

VisualBoyAdvance can emulate Gameboy and Gameboy Color, but does not get timing or lag correct, so it should not be used.
This section does not ban any emulator, nor does it mention SGB (SGB2 for JP?) GBA player for GCN, bizhawk (I think this is the emu), or even that pokmeon stadium one (I don't know the emu's name....gameboy tower?). According to this, I can use VBA (which is inaccurate), but there's nothing stopping me from claiming that time as a wr, or even a better time than console. I've mentioned this in another thread, but SHOULD does not imply that the emulator is banned. Look up the definition of "should" and you will see.
From wiki
Gameboy Advance

Recommended Emulator: VisualBoyAdvance-M. VBA-M is the best GBA emulator that we're aware of, but note that timings and lag may not be perfectly accurate.
Here, we see that VBA-M is the BEST GBA emulator, but fails to mention that VBA-RR or other emu's even exist for this game. This, once again, does not ban VBA-RR, which has easier TAS capabilities. ALSO, I'm unsure if anyone's tested it, but is VBA-M inaccurate to the point that emu is faster than console? If no one tested this, now would be a great time.
From wiki
Nintendo DS

Recommended Emulator: DeSmuME. Expect some graphical glitches, and be aware that load times differ significantly between emulator and console, so times are incomparable. If it is running slow on your computer, try to enable "Use dynamic recompiler" under Config > Emulation Settings (only available in 0.9.9 and above).
Now, this already SAYS that emu is faster than console and that they are comparable. Out of all the platforms, this one states anobvious that console and emu are separate categories. So, even though it is faster, it should be noted that no community will accept runs faster than fastest official hardware, so emu times for DS exist, but shouldn't be shown on a filter by default (if for some reason we get dat ZSR style LeaderBoard). I am not being biased here, this is just a standard procedure and thought process.

There may be other DS emu's that I'm unaware of, but once again, this fails to ban any of them.

Nintendo 3DS

Can't say anything about this, but more likely than not it'll be in same boat as DS. Time will tell.

From wiki
Nintendo 64

Project64 v1.6 is used by most runners. Runs using v2.0 are banned because of inaccurate timing shown here. Not much testing has been done on Nintendo 64 emulators timing.
WE BANNED AN EMULATOR! This wasn't handed down by PSR, but by the entire speedrun community. HOWEVER, there are other versions of PJ64 out there, which are probably more inaccurate than PJ64. HOWEVER, PJ64 is faster than console, so once again we're at the same point with DS emulation. The only difference is N64 IS NOT REGION FREE, so for the most part, emu categories are usually accepted outside of PSR among certain communities. Once again, this would have to follow the DS example of filtered runs if a ZSR style LB makes its way here.

Nintendo Gamecube / Wii

Honestly, I don't believe this should be an issue for GCN as dolphin is just a horrible emulator to use due to it's brokenness. Due to this, the community essentially really didn't make a ruling on dolphin, but it's a good idea that it may as well be banned.

For the Wii, I have no clue. I would need someone with more experience on this.

So what am I saying? As a community, we are allowing runs done on inaccurate and questionable emulators and we have no ruling that clearly states what IS allowed and what ISN'T allowed. So, I ask the community here:

What emulators should be banned FOR EACH GAME (and category if permitted), and for what reason? What emulators, if you had to choose one, would work FOR EACH GAME'S CATEGORY, since some games (like gold glitched) are impossible to be accurate on other emu's.

This is not banning all emulators, but this is more of an attempt to ensure the community is on even footing with every game.
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Re: Emulators that must be banned

Post by Vulajin » Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:41 am

No$GBA should be banned for DS runs, period. DeSmuME is permissible, but we've already separated the DS leaderboards console vs emulator, and we should be clear that emulator runs are categorized separately for DS Pokemon games.

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Re: Emulators that must be banned

Post by abitalive » Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:42 am

Zewing wrote:Now, I have talked to a few people and they told me that SGB (super game boy) for the SNES runs at 61.1 FPS, which technically means it should be banned.
Is this really relevant though while we're using IGT? Is there any advantage to using SGB currently?

Zewing wrote:
From wiki
Gameboy / Gameboy Color

Recommended Emulator: Gambatte. For the interested, the main source project is at https://github.com/sinamas/gambatte. As far as we are aware, the timing on Gambatte is exactly the same as on console.

BGB is used for Gold Glitched any% because Gambatte does not emulate some glitches correctly.

If you use BGB, you must set the following option to ensure the timing is accurate: Graphics > vsync: Vsync disabled.

VisualBoyAdvance can emulate Gameboy and Gameboy Color, but does not get timing or lag correct, so it should not be used.
This section does not ban any emulator, nor does it mention SGB (SGB2 for JP?) GBA player for GCN, bizhawk (I think this is the emu), or even that pokmeon stadium one (I don't know the emu's name....gameboy tower?). According to this, I can use VBA (which is inaccurate), but there's nothing stopping me from claiming that time as a wr, or even a better time than console. I've mentioned this in another thread, but SHOULD does not imply that the emulator is banned. Look up the definition of "should" and you will see.
I'd support the banning of VBA (and its forks) for Gameboy and Gameboy Color games, given Gambatte is vastly more accurate, and is available for all common platforms (Windows, Mac and Linux).

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Re: Emulators that must be banned

Post by Zewing » Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:49 am

From Abitalive

Is this really relevant though while we're using IGT? Is there any advantage to using SGB currently?
This is a perfect example of a situational ban IMO. If the community uses IGT, then do we allow emulators that are only banned due to IGT inaccuracies, or do we extend that to RTA even if IGT is used? For Red/Blue, would SGB show an innacurate IGT? Maybe not. What about Pokemon Yellow, in which there has been discussion about switching to RTA? That would mean Red/Blue SGB is allowed, but not for Yellow.

I cannot really say yes or no, but I do believe SGB is a legitimate form for speedrunning since it is offical, but to what games would this apply? (BTW, officially allowing SGB would vastly reduce to cost to stream via console for gen1 + 2 (excludes crystal)

Also, I'll probably be updating first post (or admins if they want :3) about Preferred emu's and Banned Emu's in question.
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Re: Emulators that must be banned

Post by Shenanagans » Mon Aug 11, 2014 4:19 am

I would prefer we try to keep it consistent across the generations. If we allowed SGB for red/blue it would be technically "ok" for glitchless, but would give an advantage for other categories (151 or NSC) as well as give an advantage during SRL Races. Why use SGB when Gambette is honestly just the better solution.
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Re: Emulators that must be banned

Post by G_heinz » Mon Aug 11, 2014 4:33 am

i'm really curious about this with respect to gen 3 in particular. i think significant testing needs to be done to make doubly sure that there are no IGT inaccuracies when using VBA-M, the emulator that i use and that i'm pretty sure any gen 3 runner uses. if i'm not mistaken, even amoeba's current emerald WR was completed on this emulator

i'm of the opinion that if a category is timed using IGT and the emulator accurately calculates this (down to the frame), then there's no reason to ban that emulator. however as gunner has demonstrated with yellow, this type of discrepancy is possible, and i think in particular little is known about whether/how this kind of discrepancy could affect gen 3 emulation. does anyone even know how IGT is calculated in gen 3?

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Re: Emulators that must be banned

Post by Amoeba » Mon Aug 11, 2014 4:40 am

G_heinz wrote:i'm really curious about this with respect to gen 3 in particular. i think significant testing needs to be done to make doubly sure that there are no IGT inaccuracies when using VBA-M, the emulator that i use and that i'm pretty sure any gen 3 runner uses. if i'm not mistaken, even amoeba's current emerald WR was completed on this emulator

i'm of the opinion that if a category is timed using IGT and the emulator accurately calculates this (down to the frame), then there's no reason to ban that emulator. however as gunner has demonstrated with yellow, this type of discrepancy is possible, and i think in particular little is known about whether/how this kind of discrepancy could affect gen 3 emulation. does anyone even know how IGT is calculated in gen 3?
My current emerald PB was done on vba-m, and the only thing I've seen with it in terms of emerald runs is inconsistency with RTA-IGT comparison. RTA is roughly 50secs faster for a comparable time on vba-m compared to the RTA on console, which I believe comes down to loading times (I notice it takes console runs a lot longer to load from new-game, load pokecentres etc).
Just my observations though, use them however~
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Re: Emulators that must be banned

Post by abitalive » Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:28 am

Proposed allowed emulators for GB/GBC:

Gambatte: Open source, supports Windows/Mac OS/Linux.
Bizhawk: Open source, supports Windows/Mac OS, uses the Gambatte core but fixes a display bug in Red/Blue making it slightly more accurate visually than Gambatte.
BGB: Closed source, supports Windows, required for Gold Glitched as Gambatte and Bizhawk do not correctly emulate some glitches.

Timing is identical to console as far as we're aware for all 3 emulators.
Last edited by abitalive on Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Gambatte display bug is not present in Yellow, clarified timing for all 3 emulators.

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Re: Emulators that must be banned

Post by starcrytas » Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:31 am

Hi guys.

I found a GBA emulator for the Wii called VBA-GX. It loads GBA ROMs from the SD card and you play the games with a Gamecube controller or Wii remote on it's side.

My question is, have any tests been done on this emulator? It's a VBA-M port. Does that matter?

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Re: Emulators that must be banned

Post by Zewing » Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:44 am

Abitalive
Proposed allowed emulators for GB/GBC:

Gambatte: Open source, supports Windows/Mac OS/Linux, timing is identical to console as far as we're aware.
Bizhawk: Open source, supports Windows/Mac OS, uses the Gambatte core but fixes a display bug in Red/Blue/Yellow making it slightly more accurate visually than Gambatte.
BGB: Closed source, supports Windows, required for Gold Glitched as Gambatte and Bizhawk do not correctly emulate some necessary glitches.


Does anyone here have any issues with this? It seems nice, but would you ban non-BGB for gold glitched due to being disadvantage, or would you just place a warning on the site about this? (may be an obvious answer, but the more clear things get stated, the better)

Also, would you guys be on board with completely banning SGB?

MAJOR QUESTION I JUST THOUGHT OF: Certain GBA games will not play properly using a DS. In fact, I believe one game, Mega Man Battle Network 4: Blue Moon, is deemed unbeatable when using a DS. Has anyone tested Gen 3 on a DS?
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Re: Emulators that must be banned

Post by abitalive » Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:58 am

Zewing wrote:Also, would you guys be on board with completely banning SGB?
The thought of completely banning an official console while we allow unofficial emulators does not sit well with me, especially considering SGB is only known to have an advantage in the much less popular glitched categories that use RTA. SGB has not been proven to give any advantages in the Gen 1 glitchless categories that use IGT.

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Re: Emulators that must be banned

Post by Sanqui » Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:22 am

Here's why allowing SGB is a bad idea.

Because SGB runs 2.4% faster, everybody would want to switch to it so they can get more resets in (and yes, the small time gain adds up). And you can even switch emu to the sgb speed and it'd be allowed in theory. But really, that'd result in a huge mess, people could be off with their settings and I wouldn't want to deal with it if I were you. I'd just ban SGB outright.
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Re: Emulators that must be banned

Post by abitalive » Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:35 am

Sanqui wrote:Here's why allowing SGB is a bad idea.

Because SGB runs 2.4% faster, everybody would want to switch to it so they can get more resets in (and yes, the small time gain adds up). And you can even switch emu to the sgb speed and it'd be allowed in theory. But really, that'd result in a huge mess, people could be off with their settings and I wouldn't want to deal with it if I were you. I'd just ban SGB outright.
After speaking to Sanqui about this I'm starting to agree that perhaps SGB should be banned. We actually have another official platform that runs at a higher framerate than the original GameBoy, Stadium's Doduo/Tower. Both SGB and the Towers allow for comparable IGT to the GB, but they also allow for faster resets and arguably don't run the game as it was originally intended. While the Towers aren't explicitly banned, obviously such a run would not be listed among the others, and so it seems fitting to treat SGB the same way.

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Re: Emulators that must be banned

Post by Lembox » Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:07 pm

abitalive wrote:Proposed allowed emulators for GB/GBC:

Gambatte: Open source, supports Windows/Mac OS/Linux.
Bizhawk: Open source, supports Windows/Mac OS, uses the Gambatte core but fixes a display bug in Red/Blue/Yellow making it slightly more accurate visually than Gambatte.
BGB: Closed source, supports Windows, required for Gold Glitched as Gambatte and Bizhawk do not correctly emulate some necessary glitches.

Timing is identical to console as far as we're aware for all 3 emulators.
If we consider banning VBA-RR because of its TAS abilities we have to ban Bizhawk for the exact same reason as well. On top of that Sanqui explained in the "Yellow switch to RTA"-Thread:
Sanqui wrote:Were any of these runs done on bgb? I have JUST learned bgb may not run at the gameboy framerate (~59.727) by default.
If bgb detects a 60Hz screen and can hook to vsync, it runs at 60fps (a 0.4% difference). Across a two hour run, this can account for 28 fucking seconds.
These facts lead to the conclusion that glitchless (GB/C) runs should (only) be done on Gambatte and bgb should be used for some glitched categories.

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Re: Emulators that must be banned

Post by Zewing » Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:47 am

Having one and only one acceptable emulator for gen 1 glitchess would make perfect sense, but do you really have to allow whatever emulators used for glitched to be used for glitchess too?
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Re: Emulators that must be banned

Post by Winds » Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:53 pm

SGB shouldn't be banned just for the reason that you can do resets slightly faster.

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Re: Emulators that must be banned

Post by Sanqui » Thu Aug 14, 2014 11:16 pm

Winds wrote:SGB shouldn't be banned just for the reason that you can do resets slightly faster.
It should be banned for the reason that it runs at the wrong FPS.
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Re: Emulators that must be banned

Post by Winds » Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:44 am

Sanqui wrote:
Winds wrote:SGB shouldn't be banned just for the reason that you can do resets slightly faster.
It should be banned for the reason that it runs at the wrong FPS.
Well, does SGB running at the wrong FPS affect on the game time at all? As far as i know, it doesn't. It definitely has an effect on real time, and should be banned for runs that use real time, however, for runs that use game time, it should be allowed.

Literally the only "advantage" it gives is that it allows resets to be done slightly faster. However, the increased speed is also a disadvantage because it gives you less time to react. You also can't use time based Dsum manipulation.

Something that hasn't been brought up yet is the extra lag SGB has. There's extra lag everywhere. When loading new areas, switching pokemon around in menus, healing, and also in Blaine's gym. There's soooo much lag in Blaine's gym lol.

SGB has a lot more disadvantages than advantages, and shouldn't be used if you're running the game seriously. You lose a lot of time to the lag, however, if anyone wants to use it, they should be allowed to. For runs that use game time anyway.

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Re: Emulators that must be banned

Post by entrpntr » Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:25 am

abitalive wrote:
Sanqui wrote:Here's why allowing SGB is a bad idea.

Because SGB runs 2.4% faster, everybody would want to switch to it so they can get more resets in (and yes, the small time gain adds up). And you can even switch emu to the sgb speed and it'd be allowed in theory. But really, that'd result in a huge mess, people could be off with their settings and I wouldn't want to deal with it if I were you. I'd just ban SGB outright.
After speaking to Sanqui about this I'm starting to agree that perhaps SGB should be banned. We actually have another official platform that runs at a higher framerate than the original GameBoy, Stadium's Doduo/Tower. Both SGB and the Towers allow for comparable IGT to the GB, but they also allow for faster resets and arguably don't run the game as it was originally intended. While the Towers aren't explicitly banned, obviously such a run would not be listed among the others, and so it seems fitting to treat SGB the same way.
Since this isn't documented anywhere onsite, the following comes from MrWint's 151 TAS notes (http://tasvideos.org/4376S.html)
MrWint wrote: The Jingle Skip in the underground path is impossible with a character name with more than 5 characters, at least on GB (in SGB, it's possible due to lag differences when loading maps).
Pretty good reason to be banned.

Also, I have seen several questions in the last couple of months in Twitch chats about whether Pokemon Stadium is a valid platform for the Game Boy games. I don't see anything on the wiki or the leaderboards about an official stance on the matter. It would be nice for the rulesets to be more explicit on exactly what platforms are allowed/disallowed. I think the consensus is that anything that runs at a different framerate than the original Game Boy should be banned; can an executive decision be made on this?

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Re: Emulators that must be banned

Post by Sanqui » Sat Jun 20, 2015 4:42 pm

I seem to remember that the Stadium emulator isn't cycle accurate - certain Pokémon sprites take a different time to decompress. Can't confirm offhand though
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Re: Emulators that must be banned

Post by Mountebank » Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:51 am

At the very least, there should be a note on the wiki about which emulators run at faster frame rates than intended. Personally, I would be in favor of a ban for problematic emulators, since it is easy enough to download a more accurate one. Even if IGT is used for determining how good a run is, people tend to use the same emulators for races as they do for runs and this could lead to unfair advantages.

On that note, there really is no reason we should still be supporting VBA-M. This emulator is known to run at a noticeably faster frame rate and is in fact banned from SRL races. From my experience running Battle Network, VBA-RR with GBA bios is preferable due to being more accurate and not cutting the sound when focus is lost, unlike regular VBA.

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Re: Emulators that must be banned

Post by luckytyphlosion » Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:10 am

Abitalive
Proposed allowed emulators for GB/GBC:

Gambatte: Open source, supports Windows/Mac OS/Linux, timing is identical to console as far as we're aware.
Bizhawk: Open source, supports Windows/Mac OS, uses the Gambatte core but fixes a display bug in Red/Blue/Yellow making it slightly more accurate visually than Gambatte.
BGB: Closed source, supports Windows, required for Gold Glitched as Gambatte and Bizhawk do not correctly emulate some necessary glitches.
One thing to add is that Pokémon Yellow Any% No Save Corruption only allows BGB as Gambatte has an emulation error with the MBC5 that does not allow Unstable Stable Missingno to work.

Bizhawk is in some sort of pickle on the legitimacy of runs using it, since it does not have any emulation advantages that other emulators have, and it has TASing capabilities. Banning it would be more on the safe side, since it eats a lot of CPU anyways and the only reason one would consider using (other than flat out cheating) is to "local record" the raw game footage for other purposes.
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Re: Emulators that must be banned

Post by Sanqui » Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:58 pm

I believe VBA-M doesn't have a faster frame rate, but haas inaccurae bios function speeds, which speeds up loading.

Bizhawk uses an older, forked Gambatte core. It's a little absurd, I believe they haven't contributed their changes back upstream. So it's confusing what has been fixed and what hasn't.
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Re: Emulators that must be banned

Post by Alocks » Sun Aug 30, 2015 5:31 am

According to the SDA wiki the SGB2 doesnt speed up the game...
https://kb.speeddemosarchive.com/Game_Boy_Capture

Is okay banning SGB. But what about SGB2? I really wanna know about SGB2,
Is it allowed or banned? and if banned why should be banned since doesn't speed up the game

I actually own a sgb2 and I don't really feel like buying a GC just for one game, or playing on emulator... FrankerZ

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Re: Emulators that must be banned

Post by Sanqui » Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:41 pm

SGB2 ought to be fine, just keep in mind you're losing time due to the palette change delays.
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