Remove all emulated runs from leaderboards

Discuss policy guidelines for the community and whether something needs to be changed or not.
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TurboKikkel
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Re: Remove all emulated runs from leaderboards

Post by TurboKikkel » Fri Aug 15, 2014 7:50 pm

I have been thinking of speedrunning pokemon for some time now and happened to stumbleupon this discussion. The fact that emu and console runs are considered equal seems really discouraging to me. Getting a WR on emu and for that run to be considered the tits is almost laughable. Having said that, banning emus altogether seems a bit too drastic since most people seem to be using them. The WR should be console only but emu runs can't be completely ignored. Therefore I think a ZSR style leaderboard would be the best option since the chanses of banning emus seem slim to none.

Complaining about the cost of equipment for running using console is a bit childish. You do realize that the world revolves around money and pussy and if you don't have either of those you probably aren't going anywhere. The investment isn't astronomical and no other games seem to enjoy the privilege of being allowed to be run on emu and to be considered legit.

Hopefully allah and the powers that be make a decision on this and put an end to the silly drama this topic seems to have stirred.

Just my two cents.

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Re: Remove all emulated runs from leaderboards

Post by issc » Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:46 pm

This forum really needs a spoiler tag so I won't have to manually trim down whatever I quote
Darcovian wrote:Please find me the Legal Case which set the precedent for ROMs being illegal please. Don't threaten me with toxicity , i was clarifying a misconception.
That's the thing, you aren't really clarifying shit. All you managed to say was it's okay to use emu/roms because no one is going to care. (which is probably true, especially for older games)

I already covered this in my first reply. It does not matter what any of us thinks really, law will not suddenly change. I think you might be confusing the ability for a government to enforce with the legality. It's true that only people that were ever sued/shutdown were people that got caught while gaining profits off of the roms. But this does not mean it's perfectly legal and okay to do those the things you aren't supposed to do (without making money) just because no one is capable (or will bother) to catch you.

Maybe in the end no one gives a fuck (because I certainly don't), but you would have to be naive as fuck to believe that what you are doing is not breaking the laws.

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Re: Remove all emulated runs from leaderboards

Post by Darcovian » Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:59 pm

issc wrote:This forum really needs a spoiler tag so I won't have to manually trim down whatever I quote
Darcovian wrote:Please find me the Legal Case which set the precedent for ROMs being illegal please. Don't threaten me with toxicity , i was clarifying a misconception.
That's the thing, you aren't really clarifying shit. All you managed to say was it's okay to use emu/roms because no one is going to care. (which is probably true, especially for older games)

I already covered this in my first reply. It does not matter what any of us thinks really, law will not suddenly change. I think you might be confusing the ability for a government to enforce with the legality. It's true that only people that were ever sued/shutdown were people that got caught while gaining profits off of the roms. But this does not mean it's perfectly legal and okay to do those the things you aren't supposed to do (without making money) just because no one is capable (or will bother) to catch you.

Maybe in the end no one gives a fuck (because I certainly don't), but you would have to be naive as fuck to believe that what you are doing is not breaking the laws.
You are not breaking the law because there are no laws to break in these regards. There is no legislation or precedents pertaining to the use of emulators, the only laws that would be in effect would involve copyrights and patents as you are basically selling someone else inventions.

There is a difference between morals and what is within the bounds of the law. It may/may not be morally correct to use emulators but its not against the law.

But you misunderstand my intentions, I am meaning to clarify that there isn't anything wrong in the eyes of the Law to use emulators and so when going forward with this debate do not take that into account when forming your opinions. If you think using emulators is wrong and shouldn't use then that's your opinion and your entitled to it but its not a Legal fact that they are wrong.

I'm just making sure we are considering the right things are mentioned in terms of this discussion.

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Re: Remove all emulated runs from leaderboards

Post by Link11OoT » Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:38 pm

I originally wasn't going to post in this thread because I am an OoT runner and I only watch Pokemon speedruns, but after reading some of the posts in this thread, I thought I might present an interesting case. Personally, I think emulators should be allowed but highly discouraged because at this point there are just too many really good legit runs that have been done on emulator. However, an eventual ban should be considered. A lot of people have been arguing that consoles require too much expensive equipment to stream, but if you have the game, something like this is also acceptable. Obviously, there is a lack of quality there, but at least there is no question that the run is legitimate.

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Gunnermaniac3
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Re: Remove all emulated runs from leaderboards

Post by Gunnermaniac3 » Sat Aug 16, 2014 12:36 am

Potato cam is better than emu runs for WR legitimacy yes ^

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Re: Remove all emulated runs from leaderboards

Post by CliffordBaconRooster » Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:01 am

Darcovian wrote:Just to clarify roms are not illegal whether you own the original cartridge or not, it is illegal to distribute them and by doing so gain a monetary profit from said distribution. Common misconception but its been mentiond enough times I had to clear that up.

...

Please find me the Legal Case which set the precedent for ROMs being illegal please. Don't threaten me with toxicity , i was clarifying a misconception.

Yeah thats right you can't because there is none and no piece of legislation has been written to include roms/ emulators. On that page of nintendos is a page of threats they give no sources or Laws which one has broken and fobs you off to other sites in order to make claims etc.

Basically roms are fine, nintendo doesn't like it but cant enforce them. Shitty yes I know but thats the legal state of Roms/ISOs they are floating in limbo atm.

Again just clarifying a common misconception, And just to add on to this I in no way endorse emulation without owning the proper cartridges but the conversations regarding the current topic are going in a healthy direction so wanted to clear up some stuff before we continue the discussions as its good to have all the information available.

...

You are not breaking the law because there are no laws to break in these regards. There is no legislation or precedents pertaining to the use of emulators, the only laws that would be in effect would involve copyrights and patents as you are basically selling someone else inventions.

There is a difference between morals and what is within the bounds of the law. It may/may not be morally correct to use emulators but its not against the law.

But you misunderstand my intentions, I am meaning to clarify that there isn't anything wrong in the eyes of the Law to use emulators and so when going forward with this debate do not take that into account when forming your opinions. If you think using emulators is wrong and shouldn't use then that's your opinion and your entitled to it but its not a Legal fact that they are wrong.

I'm just making sure we are considering the right things are mentioned in terms of this discussion.
This is remarkably incorrect and I hope I can demonstrate this to you. I am only citing U.S. law, but since you asked for any and all laws, this is sufficient to falsify your claims.

Downloading ROMs from the Internet is cut-and-dried copyright infringement if not authorized by the copyright holder of the game. It is the exclusive right of the copyright holder not only to distribute his work, but also to “reproduce the copyrighted work in copies”. Source: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/106.

Here are the limitations on those exclusive rights as they relate to video games (which are computer programs for legal purposes): http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/117. So for video games you legally own, you have the right to make archival copies and you have the right to make a copy if the sole reason is to “utilize the computer program” (i.e. play the video game). In sum: acquiring (and playing) a ROM is not illegal if you personally dumped the image from a video game that you legally own. Otherwise, it is illegal, unless you have the authorization of the copyright owner (Hint: for Pokémon games, you don’t).

Downloading ROMs from the Internet is considered creating a copy, so it is illegal if unauthorized. Here are some legal cases that set the precedent for simply downloading copyrighted material to be considered making a copy (and thus illegal). I've included some excerpts that address the crux of the matter:
THE LAW wrote:"Uploading is copying. Downloading is also copying. Unauthorized copying is an unauthorized use that is governed by the copyright laws. Therefore, unauthorized uploading and unauthorized downloading are unauthorized uses governed by the copyright laws . . . ." -Ohio v. Perry, 83 Ohio St. 3d 41, 697 N.E.2d 624 (Ohio 1998).
- Link: http://www.kentlaw.edu/faculty/rstaudt/ ... perry.html
THE LAW wrote:"The unauthorized copying of copyrighted computer programs is . . . an infringement of the copyright . . . . nauthorized copies . . . are made when such games are uploaded to the BBS [Bulletin Board Service] . . . [and] when they are downloaded to make additional copies by users . . . ."
 - Sega Enterprises v. MAPHIA, 857 F. Supp. 679 (N.D. Cal. 1994).

- Link: http://digital-law-online.info/cases/41PQ2D1705.htm

THE LAW wrote:"‘[C]opying,’ for the purposes of copyright law, occurs when a computer program is transferred from a permanent storage device to a computer's random access memory. In this case, copies were made when the Sega game files were uploaded to or downloaded from [the defendant’s] BBS [Bulletin Board Service]." - 
Sega Enterprises. v. Sabella, 1996 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 20470 (N.D. Cal. 1996).

- No publicly available link to the ruling, sadly.


My apologies for the long aside on a mostly tangential matter, but the spread of misinformation on this topic is too important to ignore.

EDIT: Reworded some things for clarity and updated the first quote to reflect the content to which I was replying. Also corrected the link to the page on copyright limitations.
Last edited by CliffordBaconRooster on Sat Aug 16, 2014 2:29 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Remove all emulated runs from leaderboards

Post by Keizaron » Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:54 am

TurboKikkel wrote:Complaining about the cost of equipment for running using console is a bit childish. You do realize that the world revolves around money and pussy and if you don't have either of those you probably aren't going anywhere.
Don't want to derail the thread with any potential flaming, but this is incredibly narrow minded. On my wage before I relocated, I STILL could not afford everything since I have ZERO possible equipment sans a television. I run Red, Crystal, and want to run Yellow, so let's go through this real quick referencing what can be found on Amazon.com (and I'm not even including shipping since that can be free in many cases):

$25+ used Red cart
$25+ used Yellow cart
$25+ used Crystal cart
$30+ used Gamecube
$10+ used Gameboy Player
$50+ used Gameboy Player software
$40+ for this particular card***
$10/$30 for Gamecube/GBASP controller

That's over $200. That's a car payment right there. You (not specifically you, OP) are delusional if you're saying that getting the equipment to be "legit" is more important than my bills so I can afford to, y'know, live.

Segregation, at worst. Purists will be happy, emulator runners can still compete even if it's in an unofficial manner. Banning emulators in its fullest capacity is incredibly short-sighted, and it's incredibly blasé to think everybody can afford the switch when every single person has a different financial situation.

The thing is I want to switch because I prefer an organic experience, but to be told my times aren't legitimate despite my hard work is ludicrous.

***I don't mind being shown if there is a cheaper card available. This was just what popped up after searching "cheap capture card".

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Re: Remove all emulated runs from leaderboards

Post by jazzychoi1991 » Sat Aug 16, 2014 2:13 am

I respect whatever decision is made over this whole discussion but I don't agree how viewers/the rest of the speedrunning community are currently being mislead false information on the whole situation by saying emulators have been removed/no longer official. That may be the eventual outcome but at this current moment, this is not the case and I personally believe that this should be stopped.

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Re: Remove all emulated runs from leaderboards

Post by Gunnermaniac3 » Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:08 am

Keizaron wrote:
TurboKikkel wrote: Segregation, at worst. Purists will be happy, emulator runners can still compete even if it's in an unofficial manner. Banning emulators in its fullest capacity is incredibly short-sighted, and it's incredibly blasé to think everybody can afford the switch when every single person has a different financial situation.
No one that understands what's actually going on is even implying emulators should be banned in any capacity. Only World Record runs should be limited to console only.

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Re: Remove all emulated runs from leaderboards

Post by Exarion » Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:13 am

Gunnermaniac3 wrote:No one that understands what's actually going on is even implying emulators should be banned in any capacity. Only World Record runs should be limited to console only.
If a run isn't in contention for a world record, why should it be placed on the same leaderboard as a world record?
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/exarionu
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Gunnermaniac3
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Re: Remove all emulated runs from leaderboards

Post by Gunnermaniac3 » Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:14 am

Exarion wrote: If a run isn't in contention for a world record, why should it be placed on the same leaderboard as a world record?
It shouldn't, there should be a leaderboard for world records and a leaderboard for all runs

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Re: Remove all emulated runs from leaderboards

Post by Plexa » Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:33 am

As someone who exclusively streams stuff on emulator (for a variety of reasons) I feel I should probably throw my 2c in. I can see the merits in both sides of the debate here, limiting WR runs to console only drastically reduces the ability for people to cheat which guarantees legitimacy of the leaderboard. This is undoubtedly a good thing. While allow emulators makes the community as open as possible and greatly lowers the barrier to entry for the casual runner.

First of all I'm making the assumption that emulation is accurate and that it offers no advantages over console. i.e. if a runner has put X hours into perfecting movement on an emulator then putting X hours into perfecting movement on console would yield equal results. If this is not the case then there is a good argument to ban emulators independent of the potential for cheating, and that's that. I appreciate that the speed of resets can be made faster on emulator through use of save states, but if that were regulated and deemed illegal (which is easy enough to justify for a host of reasons) then this problem drops away.

Before throwing emulators out for WR contention (or splitting leader boards or whatever) let's first ask are there any means to ensure legitimacy. The very first thing which comes to mind is how the problem of cheating also manifests for SRL races (or at least it used to) and how one way of dealing with that was randomly generating a two letter file name for the race. Such a solution seems to be easy to port over to pokemon speedruns (obviously for emulator only), especially in conjunction with some of the no brainer requirements like streaming all attempts and whatnot.

Require anyone wanting their emulated runs considered for WRs to use a specific letter for their trainer name and a specific letter for their pokemon name. Have the time stamp for when that is generated stored on PSR for later referencing. Precise details of the method could be worked out at a later date (such as how often you need a new 2 letter combination), but hopefully this is enough to give you an idea of how it might work. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this would eliminate any prerecorded runs (unless the person does all however many combinations lol) and other requirements like streaming all attempts significantly combats other means of cheating like hacking stats. While this would be inconvenient for emulator users, it would be part of the price you pay for running on emulator.

If that is not sufficient, then something akin to process logs/entire screen capture would seem more than sufficient to conclude that a run is legitimate. Again hugely annoying for emulated runners, but part of trying for WR on emulator.

In any case, assuming emulation is accurate as I explained earlier, I think that it is possible to establish criteria to prove runs on emulator are legitimate beyond reasonable doubt. I feel that if a user wishes to do WR attempts on an emulator then the burden of proof to show the run is legitimate in accordance with that criteria falls to the user. And should users meet these criteria then their runs can be considered for WR.

I agree that it is much simpler to ban emulators for WR attempts -- and if it really comes to it then ok. But in the interest in maximising participation in pokemon speedruns it's worthwhile to make some effort to establish some criteria to prove legitimacy. I'll also add that my interest in this is mostly as a "friend" of the pokemon community who primarily watches runs as opposed to doing runs (aside from a brief dabble in platinum) so if I'm making faulty assumptions or missing something I'm more than happy to change my position on this/be corrected.

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Re: Remove all emulated runs from leaderboards

Post by Amoeba » Sat Aug 16, 2014 7:02 am

jazzychoi1991 wrote:I respect whatever decision is made over this whole discussion but I don't agree how viewers/the rest of the speedrunning community are currently being mislead false information on the whole situation by saying emulators have been removed/no longer official. That may be the eventual outcome but at this current moment, this is not the case and I personally believe that this should be stopped.
God this. A thousand times this.

Quick reminder that these exist, 'cause they're buried in the last page now:

Form: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1vMNdpO ... M/viewform

Responses spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... d=78009910

Edit: I can't into links.
~

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Re: Remove all emulated runs from leaderboards

Post by Keizaron » Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:50 pm

Gunnermaniac3 wrote:No one that understands what's actually going on is even implying emulators should be banned in any capacity. Only World Record runs should be limited to console only.
I didn't say they were? I was stating my opinion that the outright ban of them would be the WORST thing to do. This whole thread has been opinion, good sir. I've flat out said I want to make a switch personally, I'm just more or less irritated at this "affordability" talk that keeps coming up.

e: Also, I'm really not trying to sound rude, but those who "understand what's actually going on" should clearly and precisely state what is going on, otherwise it's just going to be a bunch of back and forth for another 5 pages.

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G_heinz
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Re: Remove all emulated runs from leaderboards

Post by G_heinz » Sat Aug 16, 2014 7:46 pm

Gunnermaniac3 wrote:No one that understands what's actually going on is even implying emulators should be banned in any capacity. Only World Record runs should be limited to console only.
yeah, and i would also argue that's effectively the same thing. at the very least it's just somewhat patronizing to anyone who doesn't/can't run on console, because you're telling him/her that they're welcome to "compete" on emulator, but only up until that "competition" becomes serious WR contention. the reason why i think this is unnecessary is because i agree with plexa, and think his opinion is amongst the more informed outsider opinions here (he runs golden sun on emulator, obviously a heavily rng-based game). that is, there is no reason to ban emulator period if two criteria are met:

1. emulation is accurate (for our purposes, that means that IGT is properly calculated--since this is based on frames as far as anyone knows in most pokemon games, that means that no frames are skipped and all are counted by the game)

2. there are other sufficiently well-reasoned methods of verifying the legitimacy of WR runs. this is something we are already currently doing, in the form of the leaderboard dispute system. this system hardly had the chance to be put into experimental motion before werster came along and made this drastic suggestion, and you all (looking at you, big-name runners) swallowed it up whether or not you agreed with him because "he's werster" and you had the means to get a console, so you did before doing anything else to preempt accusations that your run wasn't really "WR" if you did so happen to finally get a run on emu.

what doesn't seem to be being addressed here is a few things. first of all, none of the WRs currently under suspicion are suspicious because of the fact that they were done on emu. let's go down the line:

1. Exarion's 1 5 0: suspect because it came out of nowhere. run was later sufficiently reasoned out, all questions by experienced members of the red community were answered promptly and satisfactorily. splits were included, as well as post-game commentary--something the 1 4 8 run mysteriously lacks. if anyone still doubts exarion's run at this point, they're either being pointlessly stubborn or have another agenda (like, i dunno, ban emu WRs?)

2. MBM's 2:02: no need to explain this except to say that the sapphire community's suspicion has nothing to do with the platform it was completed on, and in fact we were under the assumption it was on console until told otherwise, but remained suspicious for the various reasons i've already given.

3. "Sarah Hagan's" 1 4 8: everyone knows this was uploaded by werster. if you don't know this, you're either willfully ignoring it because god-knows-why, or because you want to push the same agenda as werster. it was uploaded from australia, and spitfire sure as fuck didn't do it. the comments on youtube contain knowledge that only a very few highly experienced runners would know. it was uploaded from AUSTRALIA. this is werster obviously just trying to paint emu's in a disfavorable light by trying to show that everything else can be provided that we have been talking about on these boards ("past pb's," "past attempts," "answering questions", etc.) and the run can STILL be illegitimate. oops, looks like we gotta throw the baby out with the bathwater and ban emu WRs! the only thing that we requested that sarah hagan has NOT provided is audio commentary--probably because "her" larynx is a bit too large to be convincingly NOT werster. if you don't see how uncannily coincidental the timeline of all this is then i can't help you see it.

4. starcrytas's 2:43: not here to talk shit about this run, because i don't know emerald, but let it just suffice to say that people were NOT convinced by this from the start, but they gave it the benefit of the doubt, questioned it accordingly, and did not get what appeared to be satisfying answers. a whole host of issues were brought up, including the fact that despite a seemingly very sensitive microphone, no keyboard inputs could be heard in the first recording, which is obviously highly suspicious. these questions weren't really addressed, and the time was removed.

as you can see, we have it in ourselves to verify potentially bogus WR runs, and an emu ban is NOT necessary to avoid that. in my opinion, an emu ban for WRs is only either a lazy decision because those in favor don't want to go through the motions necessary to actually diligently verify WR runs (which, in any case, ignores the fact that has been brought up that console runs can be cheated as well, or cheated emu runs can be passed off for legitimate console ones), or a decision that seeks to weed out competition. however, if emulators are accurate in their playing of the game then there is NO reason to ban them, outright or for the sake of WRs.

there's not really another way to say this. werster stands to benefit the most from a ban like this and many of the most established runners, whether they agree or not, are just rolling over on his beck and call. he's playing the community for a fool and most are just going along with it.

EDIT: don't want to make it sound like i don't support the bigger streamers, or anyone for that matter, switching to console. i myself have been wanting to make the switch for some time now and will probably be doing so in the near future. it's not the switch that i'm deriding, it's the FORCED switch for even those who don't have the ability/desire to make that switch, and also the fact that the big-name runners who are switching now are doing so without addressing the crux of the issue--that is, whether emulators are actually accurate and whether WR runs can be verified without banning emu.

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Re: Remove all emulated runs from leaderboards

Post by roushmore917 » Sat Aug 16, 2014 11:31 pm

I have been running Pokemon Games for the past year+

In my experiences, there's no recognizable difference between in-game timers for Yellow and emerald console-vs-emulators (yes, I have experience with both, you can look at my twitch highlights for verification), but I have heard that Gen 4-and-onwards have had timing issues. I do have the console and equipment for streaming from carts, but don't always have the television access I need to do it regularly (GBA Player is my method).

I might be alone on this, I might not, but in my opinion, emulators should only be segregated on a game-to-game basis, more to do with timing issues than personal preferences.

Now Gens 1-3 have consistent timing for emulators and consoles, so my vote would only be worth anything in these situations (more gens 1 and 3, cuz that's where my experience lies), and my say is to keep them unsegregated.

Now in order to prevent the drama of the "untrue" emulator runs, I wish to say that those runs MUST BE STREAMED (per rules of SRL) and I would also wish to add a column so that the streamer can list people who saw said run LIVE who can verify that it was done. People who interact with chats mid-run would make these easier to verify.
I see very well how this could turn into a disaster, but this is just an idea.

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Re: Remove all emulated runs from leaderboards

Post by G_heinz » Sat Aug 16, 2014 11:43 pm

roushmore917 wrote:I have been running Pokemon Games for the past year+

In my experiences, there's no recognizable difference between in-game timers for Yellow and emerald console-vs-emulators (yes, I have experience with both, you can look at my twitch highlights for verification), but I have heard that Gen 4-and-onwards have had timing issues. I do have the console and equipment for streaming from carts, but don't always have the television access I need to do it regularly (GBA Player is my method).

I might be alone on this, I might not, but in my opinion, emulators should only be segregated on a game-to-game basis, more to do with timing issues than personal preferences.

Now Gens 1-3 have consistent timing for emulators and consoles, so my vote would only be worth anything in these situations (more gens 1 and 3, cuz that's where my experience lies), and my say is to keep them unsegregated.

Now in order to prevent the drama of the "untrue" emulator runs, I wish to say that those runs MUST BE STREAMED (per rules of SRL) and I would also wish to add a column so that the streamer can list people who saw said run LIVE who can verify that it was done. People who interact with chats mid-run would make these easier to verify.
I see very well how this could turn into a disaster, but this is just an idea.
agree completely.

do you know exactly how IGT is calculated in gen 3, say? i know the mechanism is fairly well-understood in gen 1. and i also remember hearing something along the lines that the rayquaza cutscene is one of the things in emerald that doesn't count towards IGT (which would be a compelling reason why the RTA/IGT difference is greater in emerald than in sapphire, where there is no such cutscene). i'm curious to figure out what other things don't count towards it as well though. my intuition is perhaps just any sequence where the player can't make an input? i.e. any cutscene involving movement or text that is not advanced by the player.

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roushmore917
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Re: Remove all emulated runs from leaderboards

Post by roushmore917 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:15 am

G_heinz wrote:
do you know exactly how IGT is calculated in gen 3, say?
I'm probably going to lose a lot of credibility here, but this is a clearing-up of my last post...

I understand how the yellow timer works (i.e. start time, pikachu cry, loading times ect.), but I personally haven't done too much experimenting with it.

Emerald: I know when the timer starts (when the "door" opens from the moving van), and that the Weather Trio cutscenes don't factor into in-game time, but most of my true experimenting came with the method 1 manipulations and the breeding aspect (on console only)...

However, I'd like to bring up the factor (not to shy away from the beginning of this post, just a thought that came up from posting) of the HUMAN element. Say someone comes up and says that they got, say a 1:57:41 RTA on Yellow... with a 1:55 IGT. Then someone else later on has a 1:57:38 RTA, but their IGT ends up at 1:56...

Now I realize that fair bit of the argument for the "Banning emus" is based around "cheated" runs. If someone can verify that their time was legitimate and would be willing to answer questions until the community is willing to accept said time does seem like it would be a long process, but it MAKES SURE THAT TIMES ARE LEGIT. If it takes time, so be it...

I personally don't want to alienate emulator streamers because I was once one, and I like seeing new people try their proverbial hand at Pokemon Speedrunning. However, I also see good points that the pro-console-ers make, but eliminating emulators isn't going to stop TAS runs from showing up... the people who do just want to get WR will still find ways of manipulating the game so that they can claim the top spot, it doesn't matter whether we ban emus or not, those who want it BAD ENOUGH will still make efforts.
Last edited by roushmore917 on Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Remove all emulated runs from leaderboards

Post by MoneyHypeMike » Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:22 am

Yo G_heinz, did you read plexa post or only part of it?

He clearly states why console and emulator cannot be compared:
Plexa wrote: First of all I'm making the assumption that emulation is accurate and that it offers no advantages over console. i.e. if a runner has put X hours into perfecting movement on an emulator then putting X hours into perfecting movement on console would yield equal results. If this is not the case then there is a good argument to ban emulators independent of the potential for cheating, and that's that. I appreciate that the speed of resets can be made faster on emulator through use of save states, but if that were regulated and deemed illegal (which is easy enough to justify for a host of reasons) then this problem drops away.
You've been posting since the begging of this thread and seemed to have never taken that into consideration in any of your post.

Anyone who is still convinced that emulator and console time can be compared should try and play on console. All the people I have talked to who used to run on emulator and switched to console noticed the difference.

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G_heinz
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Re: Remove all emulated runs from leaderboards

Post by G_heinz » Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:58 am

yeah, i read the whole post. the parts you bolded are WHY i thought it was a good post.

what i maybe haven't conveyed enough here is that i don't have an opinion on this matter. rather, i think opinions are being made for the wrong reasons.

if you assume emulator runs accurately, then there is no reason to ban it.

if accuracy is defined by no errors in emulation, then all emulators currently legal for their respective categories (gambatte, VBA-M, etc.) are accurate and there is no reason to ban them.

if accuracy is defined by identical framerate, i.e. no lag that would not be present on console, then all emulators should be banned universally--not just for WR.

now it is my view that the latter definition of accuracy is unnecessarily stringent for any category that uses IGT. why? because the game does not calculate how long it took in real-time to display the number of frames that it has counted. it merely adds up the number of frames that were played, which would result in an identical IGT for an identical run (identity being defined on the frame-level), even if the other run were produced on console. comparison of these two times by RTA standards would probably reveal that the console run has a slightly better RTA time, because if anything, an emulator will run slightly slower. for example, in my experience, running sapphire on VBA-M, the speed of the emulator at the top of the window will always be close to 100% (i.e. perfectly accurate framerate), but does oscillate between ~98-100% through the duration of a run. this results in a larger difference between the RTA and the IGT than would be present for a console run with the same IGT, usually in the ballpark of 20-30 seconds. this is not due to errors in emulation, such as the emulator skipping over certain frames or executing actions in fewer frames, but rather due to periodically displaying frames slightly more slowly (e.g. displaying 58 or 59 frames in a particular second rather than the full 60, costing fractions of RTA seconds across the run, but resulting in an identical IGT).

now keep in mind that DS emulators are banned because they do not emulate accurately in the sense that they do not emulate without errors (to my knowledge), NOT simply because they lag slightly. this is in contrast to other generations which are emulated accurately and smoothly.

also, it should go without saying that emulator should be banned universally for any RTA categories (in our case, most (all?) glitched categories), because any slowdown/speedup of the emulator would result in an inaccurate RTA which is the only distinguishing factor for those runs. that is not to say that the games are being emulated "incorrectly" or with any errors, just to say that they might display frames at an "unconsolelike" rate from time to time, making for an inaccurate RTA.

as far as "unfair advantages" over console...someone please tell me what these are. i legitimately don't know of any. keyboard input is not an advantage. faster resets is not an advantage. savestates is an advantage for practice/testing purposes that any runner could take advantage of. this needs to be cleared up, because i think it's been overstated and i don't know why.

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Re: Remove all emulated runs from leaderboards

Post by Zewing » Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:32 am

Any runner could take advantage of savestate practice, but that muscle memory only benefits those who continue using emulator. Once you switch from emu to console, you'll see just how odd it becomes.

Faster resets only benefits IMO if you use savestating resets, which, unless you're an idiot, is an understood banned function.

I don't have comments for your other points since they're pretty strong, especially the use of emu's for RTA categories. They're strong, valid points, but it'd be nice to know gen 3's IGT stuff down to a T like red's ;;
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Re: Remove all emulated runs from leaderboards

Post by Gunnermaniac3 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:04 am

G_heinz wrote: as far as "unfair advantages" over console...someone please tell me what these are. i legitimately don't know of any. keyboard input is not an advantage. faster resets is not an advantage.
These are 2 MASSIVE advantages in Pokemon games. I have 11k Yellow resets. If I used emulator functions to get faster resets, how many more attempts would I have gotten? Hundreds.... The point is that I could've gotten WR on those runs. How can increased resets per hour NOT be an advantage...(I intentionally avoided using functions that increased RPR during my time using emulator for this reason)
After playing on console, being able to map button layouts however you want and use whatever type of controller you want is a huge advantage. I didn't realize until I switched though.

And that's reason enough to consider this, not even touching upon legitimacy issues.

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Re: Remove all emulated runs from leaderboards

Post by Decon082 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:58 am

MoneyHypeMike wrote:Anyone who is still convinced that emulator and console time can be compared should try and play on console. All the people I have talked to who used to run on emulator and switched to console noticed the difference.
Gunnermaniac3 wrote:After playing on console, being able to map button layouts however you want and use whatever type of controller you want is a huge advantage. I didn't realize until I switched though.
In response to both of you here... Is it easier to run on emulator only because you can use a keyboard? You could use the same exact controller to play on emulator and on console if you wanted, and I know a lot of runners that use a controller with emulator.

And in that case, what's going to stop somebody from rigging up a keyboard into the GameCube controller port and getting the same kind of movement advantages you can get on emulator? Would this be fair? Technically it's still being played on console so it must be a legitimate run now.
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G_heinz
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Re: Remove all emulated runs from leaderboards

Post by G_heinz » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:28 am

Gunnermaniac3 wrote:
G_heinz wrote: as far as "unfair advantages" over console...someone please tell me what these are. i legitimately don't know of any. keyboard input is not an advantage. faster resets is not an advantage.
These are 2 MASSIVE advantages in Pokemon games. I have 11k Yellow resets. If I used emulator functions to get faster resets, how many more attempts would I have gotten? Hundreds.... The point is that I could've gotten WR on those runs. How can increased resets per hour NOT be an advantage...(I intentionally avoided using functions that increased RPR during my time using emulator for this reason)
After playing on console, being able to map button layouts however you want and use whatever type of controller you want is a huge advantage. I didn't realize until I switched though.

And that's reason enough to consider this, not even touching upon legitimacy issues.
with respect to banning emulator, we should ONLY be concerned with legitimacy/accuracy issues.

we time runs, not resets.

at this point none of these arguments have anything to do with the original objections to emulators brought up by werster. they're completely ad hominem and have nothing to do with whether emulated runs could constitute legitimate WR.

EDIT: missed zewing's post.
Zewing wrote:Any runner could take advantage of savestate practice, but that muscle memory only benefits those who continue using emulator. Once you switch from emu to console, you'll see just how odd it becomes.
i agree with that and have done some practice on console. but whether or not it allows for more streamlined practice still has nothing to do with the runs themselves, though i must admit that loading gamesaves for practice takes longer than loading a savestate.
Zewing wrote:Faster resets only benefits IMO if you use savestating resets, which, unless you're an idiot, is an understood banned function.
^^^

at least in sapphire, CMD+SHIFT+R on my keyboard is hardly faster than START+SELECT+A+B. but even if it were eons faster, it has nothing to do with whether emulator runs can constitute legitimate (=unmanipulated/unsegmented/unspliced/etc.) WR.
Zewing wrote:I don't have comments for your other points since they're pretty strong, especially the use of emu's for RTA categories. They're strong, valid points, but it'd be nice to know gen 3's IGT stuff down to a T like red's ;;
it would be, and i'm very curious to know a little better just how it's calculated. maybe someone like sanquii would be more equipped to look into something like that.
Last edited by G_heinz on Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:48 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Remove all emulated runs from leaderboards

Post by Javi137 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:41 am

I just want to point how some runners have already decided by themselves that the emulators are already banned / out of the PSR, and all the actual WR done on emu dont even count.

That shows how good is this community, how strong we are as a group

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