Penalty for Emulator and GBI runs for r/b/y 151.

Discuss policy guidelines for the community and whether something needs to be changed or not.
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Kylovic
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Penalty for Emulator and GBI runs for r/b/y 151.

Post by Kylovic » Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:47 pm

Heya all,
this discussion was started in stringflow's chat a few minutes ago, during one of his 151 runs. As most should know, the GameboyPlayer has a fade out animation when you reset it, which takes a few seconds. Turning the power off and on again takes even more time, as it has to go through the entire startup sequence.
The GameboyInterface (GBI) is recently being used by more and more people for runs now (Pokeguy as an example here), and it's not banned because it doesn't add anything exept sharp graphics. One thing the GBI does add tho are Emu-like resets, meaning, even though you reset the GameCube, the GBI does not have a fade-out animation like the real GBP disc would have.
This also applys for emulator, as they have a hard reset button so there's no fadeout aswell.

With all the manips now added into the 151 run, this leaves console players without the GBI with a sort of big disadvantage. The current 151 route uses a total of 10 manips, the fade out animation is about 3 seconds. Non-GBI users are losing 30 seconds per run over emu or GBI users just because they use original hardware.

This thread is to bring up a discussion about emu/GBI for runs with manips. Should there be a penalty? What else could be the solution?

EDIT: As pointed out by others, the timeloss is not even close to 30s. As Keiz told me it's 16 seconds for emu compared to GBP, and only 11 for GBI compared to GBP. Take this into consideration.
Last edited by Kylovic on Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Exarion
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Re: Penalty for Emulator and GBI runs for r/b/y 151.

Post by Exarion » Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:35 pm

It's probably too late to ban GBI, so a penalty sounds like the best solution.
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pokeguy84
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Re: Penalty for Emulator and GBI runs for r/b/y 151.

Post by pokeguy84 » Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:46 pm

I have made timings for hard resets of emulator, GBI, and GBP. I save corrupted the file on each, then counted the frames between the disappearing of the yes/no box, and the disappearing of the gameboy logo. This is what i came up with:
Emulator: 3.033 seconds (BGB and GSR)
GBI: 3.500 seconds
GBP: 4.633 seconds

Here is a video of the comparisons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EogylxA0vw

ExtraTricky
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Re: Penalty for Emulator and GBI runs for r/b/y 151.

Post by ExtraTricky » Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:50 pm

It should never be too late to ban something if it gives an advantage over official consoles. I know for glitchless we've been turning a blind eye to it because the advantage is only a couple seconds, but it sounds like it's significant here. I understand that people want to use GBI to have sharper graphics and to save money on the GBP disk, but those considerations should take a back seat to fair time comparisons.

Keizaron
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Re: Penalty for Emulator and GBI runs for r/b/y 151.

Post by Keizaron » Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:30 am

FYI, it's not a 30 second difference, it's a 16 second difference on emulator and an 11 second difference on GBI for 151.

(assuming perfect GBP resets, of course)

entrpntr
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Re: Penalty for Emulator and GBI runs for r/b/y 151.

Post by entrpntr » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:07 am

(Just a couple of questions, since I don't really know what the fairest solution is.)

What would be the treatment for powering off the GameCube to reset? That wastes some time, but has no functional difference to the examples here.

Also, if we are standardizing for fair time comparisons, why would other official platforms be ignored in the equation? At the very least, DMG/SGB2/VC have some things that affect timings; I don't know the functional differences offhand, but it seems weird to only standardize between the platforms that behave as a GBA.

My personal preference would be to have a SM64-like system, where GBA platforms are the only allowed platforms for "WR". It's the only platform anyone going for competitive times uses anyway, and it avoids all the annoyances that would come from having "optimal consoles" for any given category (especially ones that don't have any widely available way to capture gameplay). Then you can have some type of "time without loads" and have it be equitable.

Other consoles don't really offer anything that's interesting with relation to gameplay or competitiveness, so I think the appeal of eliminating grumbling about console differences outweighs the accessibility benefits of supporting different consoles (at least for "WR" anyway). Others may feel differently, but I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in, since platform differences have been lingering as a potential problem for a pretty long time now.

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Re: Penalty for Emulator and GBI runs for r/b/y 151.

Post by Keizaron » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:19 am

entrpntr wrote: if we are standardizing for fair time comparisons, why would other official platforms be ignored in the equation?
Mainly because other platforms are listed as other platforms on the leaderboards, whereas GBP/GBI/GSR/BGB are all listed as a GBC (which I don't really agree with)

Kylovic
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Re: Penalty for Emulator and GBI runs for r/b/y 151.

Post by Kylovic » Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:48 am

Keizaron wrote:FYI, it's not a 30 second difference, it's a 16 second difference on emulator and an 11 second difference on GBI for 151.

(assuming perfect GBP resets, of course)
My 30 seconds were just an estimate but even 16 seconds is quite the time. Let's say a 151 runner on GBP would get a run that is 15 seconds slower than Pokeguys WR on GBI. It really wouldn't make sense not to call it the better run.
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tikevin83
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Re: Penalty for Emulator and GBI runs for r/b/y 151.

Post by tikevin83 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:48 pm

Assuming pokeguy and gifvex have listed accurate timings, the GBI is actually more accurate to the reset timing of the GBA console than the official GBP disc. It is a strange situation to be in as as community that software and hardware modifications to the gamecube console can significantly improve the accuracy of its play to original handheld hardware. I would recommend classifying runs done via GBI hardware separately, but not penalizing them considering the nature of the shoddy original GBP disc.
For those worried about entry cost of speedrunning with GBI, seeing as it can be used as a complete replacement to the GBP disc, it is considerably cheaper to buy pokemon colosseum as a way to load GBI than to buy the GBP disc (though you do need a way to load a hacked save file to a gamecube memory card to run GBI).

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Re: Penalty for Emulator and GBI runs for r/b/y 151.

Post by Keizaron » Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:48 am

Please refer to this link for a follow-up: viewtopic.php?f=117&t=703

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Re: Penalty for Emulator and GBI runs for r/b/y 151.

Post by Keizaron » Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:59 am

More of a follow-up: viewtopic.php?f=117&t=773

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